Recommend Lav for H4N.... Long Intro-Newbie

[Robes]

Hello All-


I'm researching for a good cost effective audio system for my personal treks. Background. This will be outdoor video (Did some video on a 40’ cutter rigged sailboat to Antarctica a couple years ago) & photography and in the style of "Survivor Man- Les Stroud". Just me and my dog in the Northern Rockies. Besides recording myself, the dog and wildlife, I want to record night time ambient sounds, winds, rain, and the hatching of billions of mosquitos that sound like flying chain saws.
This is for myself and friends viewing, It will be done for the sake of capturing nature & beauty, so others can see where I have been. I need to travel light, although- not really. I carry food, camera gear, camping gear, I don’t depend on eating insects, fish yes.
I want better then camera sound yet versatile as mentioned. I have to work with what I have and right now, I have a Hero 3+ Black Gopro for video capture, but hope to include 1 video cam which I haven’t begun to look for (it won’t be anything high end, maybe used though). My gear is really Nikon, pro level for photography, video is lagging far behind. I love editing in FCPX & that what drives me to get video, something I can include my pictures within. I have no one to answer to, if I get bad sound, well- so be it, the pictures speak. I have not purchased any audio items as yet.

So far this is my thought: Oscar Sound Tech (OST) Lav TL-40 (hidden) -----> FetHead Phantom preamp -----> H4N -----> sync audio to video in post FCPX. I think this is a cost effective system at reasonable audio but don't know if it works.

UPDATE: Dave from OST said I would need to include their power adapter for their lavs to work here, with the FetHead & XLR inputs. So now, I would like to find an alternate compatible lav, being this would jump me from <$100 to the $160 range. I’m considering the TL-40 as my upper limit at its Plug-In-Power (PIP) price which cannot be utilized if using XLR. I would like to use the XLR mic inputs because there are 2 and I may upgrade to 2 lavs in the near future. It’s possible, using the XLR system will prove too expensive but it can probably be upgraded more easily I think, maybe more cost effect down the road. I could just use the single input 1/8” jack and go with the PIP TL-40 for now. The dilemma…..
I would love to buy used equipment but I find it VERY difficult to track down. I can’t find what I think will work new at this point.

Thoughts About My Imaginary System:

** I want to go with wired lavs for cost concern. I may very well purchase another matching lav later so I can include 2 way conversation at times in these sort of projects, but 1st off I’ll go with 1 lav. & hope it’s a good match (match as in working well with my recorder with minimal hiss/preamp noise). I really don’t know how to match the mic to the H4N.

** I believe the Zoom H4N would suit me well, if what I think it can do, it can. Zoom for cost and versatility. #1 reason for Zoom, it can act as a USB mic. I will double duty this devise by using it for voice overs in post (iMac & FCPX) as well as all the audio recordings as mentioned above. The H4N is suppose to have better preamps then the H1. The video cam sound will only be used for syncing the recorded H4N sound. Please comment if any of these prospects are not within the capability of the H4N; for example, ability to record a 2 way conversation or for ambient night/wildlife/atmospheric sounds (thinking to use the internal stereo mics here).

** The “Basic FetHead” ( http://tritonaudio.com/index.php?Itemid=33 ). All the FetHead products require phantom power. The Basic FetHead will not pass phantom power to the lav. The FetHead Phantom does pass phantom power along to the mic. The question I have with the Basic FetHead when inline is; Will the Plug-In-Power be available to a condenser lav (which only requires PIP) with the Basic FetHead in-line? If the lav mic being used needs phantom power then the “FetHead Phantom” can be used in-place of the Basic FetHead. The Basic Fet will not pass phantom power along to the mic, will it allow the plug-in-power to pass to the mic? This answer will help in selecting a lav.

** I had read from 1 persons view that they would not use a lav with nothing less than -35 dB re 1 volt/Pascal sensitivity with the H1. This person said the sensitivity of the OST TL-40 which I originally planned to go with was -56 dB re 1 volt/Pascal ( don’t know how he knew that). But, this is why I thought to include the FetHead. So, if following this persons advise is “sound” then it maybe fine to leave the FetHead out of the system, unless the cost/sound trade off to a cheaper lav with the FetHead would be acceptable. Another point to make here is, supposedly, the H4N has better preamps then the H1 he was referring to, albeit probably not significant.


What I hope to find out:

- A few good lav recommendations in view of all thats been said. Which recommendations would work well with/without a preamp?

- Any down & dirty specs to know that would determine which mic would be most compatible with/without a preamp to the H4N?

- Will the Basic FetHead supplied by H4N phantom power allow Plug-in-Power to flow to a mic.

- If the FetHead is used do you think there would be problems/limitations wearing it during active movement, hiking etc. Problems with maintaining good connections or loosening of connections.

Any recommendations appreciated.

TIA
Robes

 

[Alex H.]

Hi, Robes, and welcome to DVXUer!

First, I highly recommend that you read through the yellow stickies at the top of the sound forum, just to start to get the basics of sound for video.

It seems to me, based on your thorough description (thanks for that... too often folks post questions about "which mic" without bothering to describe the application), you are mostly recording yourself at this point. I would not normally recommend a lav+handheld recorder for many reasons, but in this case it may suit your purpose.

One thing that's missing here: what's your budget? From here down in my post, that information is missing and so my advice is based on a better-case scenario/best-guess.

Since you are out in the wilderness, have you considered protection from the elements? I would really recommend you look toward the Countryman B3 or B6 lav, which can be terminated for XLR to utilize phantom power (no FetHead needed). These lavs are moisture-resistant and can survive being used in rainstorms or even an accidental slip into a creek. I'd also suggest that you look at an Aquapac, which will provide protection for your recorder while you're wearing the lav.

As for the recorder, I am not a big fan (at all) of Zoom's handhelds. The pre-amps are lacking. Tascam performs much better. The Sony PCM-M10 is a great device, too, but lacks the XLR inputs. Probably the best value for handheld recorders in Tascam's line would be the DR-40. It's a bit outdated, but that just means that the price has dropped. Also worth considering is the DR-44WL, an updated version with better metering and controls.

The advantage of a handheld recorder in your situation is that the onboard stereo mic array can be used to gather ambient sound beds during your excursions, where dialog is not necessary (get a good windjammer for this use). You can also use it to record your VO, simply using one channel from the recording (no sense in recording and editing your VO in stereo, since that can cause issues in post and for your viewers). Again, not something I'd normally recommend, but since this is hobby-level it may suit you well. If you want to up your VO recording game, there are better mics to use for that.

There's a rule in sound that recording without monitoring is like shooting video without looking through the viewfinder, so it may behoove you to rig some sort of earbud monitoring if that's at all possible. I know it's added expense, and added stuff to wear, but you really don't know what you've recorded until it's too late if you haven't actually heard it until it's done.

Hope this helps!

 

[Richard Crowley]

It is not clear why you think you must "hide" the microphone? You aren't exactly shooting a costume period piece set 100 years ago. And there is such a VERY WIDE range of options, trying to conduct this discussion without some kind of budget range is nearly pointless.

Using a recorder with mic preamps not know for their quality, and bumping the battery voltage up to 48V just to power a FetHead to compensate for the lousy mic preamps, and then passing that 48V through to a big adapter circuit in the mic just to knock it back down to 5V for the electret mic capsule just seems silly if you are trying to minimize weight and bulk. Boosting battery voltage up to 48V phantom really sucks the battery life, and the bulk and weight of batteries may even be more of an issue than the gear itself.

For that matter, it is not clear why you think you need to record separate sound to a separate audio recorder. If you are going to pack around that much gear (and batteries) you would be MUCH better off with a second (or third) camera. Don't be influenced by the wannabe-Spielbergs trying to shoot scripted productions with amateur crews. You are doing a completely different kind of production than they are and you have different priorities.

I just watched "How To Record Good Audio Outside - Survivorman Behind the Scenes" and Mr. Stroud reveals that he uses a wireless lav for his main dialog pickup, and the built-in mics on his 5 (FIVE!) cameras for all the audio you hear. If that is good enough for broadcast television, dunno why you think you need to go to the hassle of using double-system sound which (IMHO) will never return superior sound for the investment in the gear and the fiddling-around factor out in the field.

Kudos for finding OST. An excellent North American vendor of good gear at sensible prices and approachable customer-service.

 

[Robes]

Thanks for you comments Alex-

I will look at those stickies. Budget; basically around the price of items I listed. I can get a refurbished H4N for $160, new for $170 on Amazon now, so I may find something for less. I would have gone with the OST TL-40 at $ ~$95 (looking for a comp to that). If a good Lav/recorder match can save the price of the preamp (eg. FetHead $100) I could allow more for the lav, say around $150. I'm not including accessories as windscreens etc in this, or tax or S/H. It would be great to find a lav/ recorder matching that didn't require the preamp, there is allot of value in that to me.

The Countryman B3 seems to be a candidate (I'd say the B6 is too much) either one especially if I could find something used or open package type discount. If you say these are quality enough to drop the preamp I will start looking for something.

I quickly checked the DR-40 Tascam & it does not work as a USB mic. I also looked at the DR-44WL although I didn't see it in writing, no where does it say it's a feature for it either. I need the USB mic capability or there goes the budget for a lav. I'm thinking the handhelds (if USB Micable) will work on par or better then standalones out there, at least the cheaper ones but? I also read this article: http://www.sam-mallery.com/2013/02/tascam-dr-40-vs-zoom-h4n/ , and his follow-up that is linked within the original article. This puts the H4N above the DR-40. As we all know, you can find all the support you want for either model out there. So far, I'll stick with the H4N for now (price /reviews/cost) XLR and USB mic capability for voice overs.

I will look into the earbuds as a monitoring item, I can through those in the pack easy enough.

Well again, I thank you for your suggestions and comments, very useful. I'll read up and surf around checking into the Countryman lavs, especially in relation to the H4N at this point. Plus I have homework, the yellow sticks-

Robes

 

[Robes]

Hello Richard and thank you for your reply,

Budget; I just replied to that in the previous post. I think from the background I gave, experience, and who it's for (myself), location, conditions, I tried to convey that I'm not looking for top shelf equipment here. I listed items and talked price on them, this is the level & price range equipment I'm looking at. This is all low end stuff, is it not? If I say $99.00 for a lav but it is such a well match for the H4N that it doesn't require a preamp then I have more to spend on the lav, but would I? should I? Would you not recommend a $110 lav that didn't need a preamp? I think there is plenty of info here to deduct a reasonable conclusion especially if you check the last reply I made which didn't set prices either. I will only talk in circles because there are far too many variables/conditions/outcomes that could apply. What if an item is readily available used that would save me 1/2 the price, I would take that barring condition, but unless it was suggested I may never have known the possibility existed.

It's as hard for you to answer as I to set a budget. So many possibilities, I've tried to spell it best I can. I can say I'm holding firm so far on the price for a new H4N. Find me something that is better then that and cheaper, take that difference and add it to your ~$100 lav budget (previously stated). Find me quality enough to remove the pre-amp, add that to your lav budget too etc.

Les Stroud. Not that I have any intention to do what he does, but his early years are more reminiscent of what I would compare to. He originally had 1 GoPro. That is what I have, I can't use that for audio in any form except to sync something to it. Consider I have no audio with the GoPro, what would take its place? I expect to add 1 other camera and have some proper lens but I won't consider more (if anything dump the GoPro and keep the other). My treks this year I'll concentrate with what I have. I carry far more photographic equipment, it will remain that way. I actually will not have much dialog, but I'd like the audio to be as good as a dSLR- that would put GoPros to shame. I would like to have better audio and also record some ambient background sounds.

When I watch Les Strouds show my first thought is (every time) he doesn't show anything, there is no beauty in landscape, no art in his video. Why be there? Oh please turn the camera into that valley so we can see it....! He's not a nature lover if judged by his video. My God, I think of what I have seen, and I think, I need to get some video, at least for me, to put the stills against it.

Considering your 2nd paragraph, that to me makes the H1 not the H4N a better choice. I could then go with the OST TL-40 or 801 plug in power and leave it at that. <$100 for one of those lavs. I read a post by 1 person who had the H1 and TL-40, claimed it was excellent. I believe a member here which probably knows better then me. I don't worry about hiding the lav perfectly, I don't want clothing noise, but lets say unobtrusively. I thought the H4N would allow me to use 2 lavs down the road to utilize for 2 way conversation, but that probably isn't necessary anyhow.

My thought about wireless lavs. Wire is probably better at least in the level of equipment I'll be using. Wireless would be nice but a luxury to me & not worth the price of admission, if I can have the same sound for less.

If I haven't read a bit about what I'm planning to do by myself with my crummy little camera, that doesn't have beans for audio pickup, and read your reply, guess I'd say forget it. Just stick to the Nikon, that's where all my money is anyhow, besides I can hardly make way with it all now.

So now you have me back peddling, what do you think about the TL-40/801/802 into the H1, Dave from OST said they would supply the jack for the zoom H1 ($92.00 total). Think that would work well enough without the pre amp for my low life purpose?

Robes

 

[Rick R]

The OST 801/802 has more mounting options available, as the Tram mounts are interchangeable. (tie clip. Dracula, cage, plate, ect.) and is less sensitive to wind and can handle a higher SPL level than the TL40 (if that is an issue). The beloved Countryman B6 is a great mic fo' sure, but is very sensitive to air turbulence. Both the B3 and B6 have sensitivity options which should be considered before purchase. Another nice feature is the three HF response caps. Of coarse it's more expensive than the OSTs.

 

[Alex H.]

The beloved Countryman B6 is a great mic fo' sure, but is very sensitive to air turbulence. Both the B3 and B6 have sensitivity options which should be considered before purchase. Another nice feature is the three HF response caps. Of coarse it's more expensive than the OSTs.

Again, I would still suggest this rout (the B3 especially, considering budget limitations), simply because of its ability to withstand the elements. If you're going to be out hiking and camping, you want to protect the mic from moisture. Wind, you can add protection and deal with that probelm much more easily. Water is not so easy to deal with if the mic isn't built for it.