Reality TV DP Rates???

cousinavi7

cousinavi7

Well-known member
Hi Guys,

I've been shooting web promos and commercial work. For this work my rate is $500/day plus $250/day for my 7D camera kit.

I've been asked to shoot a TV show for a production company that has thrown me a lot of work. They are in Season 2 of reality show that has cable distribution. The show involves 3 traveling trips of 2 weeks each trip.

They are telling me that there is no money on the show and want to cut my rate to $300/day as DP and use my kit only "occasionally" on the show (they want to use their own HVXs instead). This means they will pay only days used for my kit that will be flown and available for all 2 weeks.

I'm new to TV and am wondering what a going non union rate should be? $300 seems like an insult for DP and I'm wondering if I should stay at $500 or walk.

Thoughts from other travel based TV shows?
 
$300/day is a reasonable non-union rate for your AC. I've been willing to bring along extra kit and bill only for days it's used, but only when my standard rate is being met (and pay my travel per diem).

When a client treats me fairly, I make sure to reciprocate by treating them fantastically with any resources I have at my disposal. Clients who take me for granted, however, will not see me offer up extra goodies.

If this company wants to cut your rate and you're willing to take the job, do your job splendidly, but don't throw them freebies on things they would otherwise need to rent.
 
Thats a good point about the freebies. I want to work with people, but I should point out, I'm NOT AN AC.

They are offering $300/day to DP a travel/reality TV show with distribution. The rate seems not worth it to me.
 
counter offer to show you are reasonable and be prepared to walk if they won't budge. The most important thing you can ever tell a client is no.
 
$500 a day is a more than reasonable minimum for that kind of shoot. Plus travel expenses (airfare, etc.) hotel and per diem. What was the DP on season 1 making? The production company is certainly entitled to use their own equipment, if it is sufficient to the task.
I'm betting that your own kit won't see much rental from them.
Your first instincts are good ones...stick to your price and be prepared to walk.
All longtime shooters have had to deal with this scene.
Hope this helps.
Ken
 
Hey guys thanks for the input. Had a great meeting with the company and we were able to come to an arrangement. They did come up with a more generous offer. Thanks for the thoughts!
 
Huh

Huh

Well, you should always get as much as you can, but it's funny when you say "insult." I consider $300/day to be the going rate for a good DP on corporate / industrial work, at least. I won't pay more than that and I can get very good quality for that. I love my primary corporate DP, he's awesome, and has shot numerous feature films now, but he's happy for the work as are most people in this town, at least.

He uses his own HVX200 usually too. I have two of my own, so I wouldn't mind him using my equipment, but he seems fine using his.

$500 is steep and $250 for a camera that isn't worth anything per day, that's an ouch, haha. I have hired in the business for three years now and consistently paid $300/day and gotten at least 10-20 very good reels and resumes for those openings, and 75 or so total applications. No reason to offer more money, that's the market price.
 
Sounds like you're being low balled to me. You're not shooting with a Sony F900 so you can't ask for premium rate but on-air cable should be able to pay a DP $500/day without equipment.
 
"The foundations of the business are changing. The technologies not only of production but of distribution are changing fast. Advertising is changing.

Many producers will tell you that the high end of the market and the low end of the market are holding, but the middle has gone away. That means that high end production will keep paying healthy rates (or comparatively healthy rates) and the low end will keep hiring kids to work on the production slave-ships for fast-food service wages, or asking experienced professionals to work for a lot less.

The New York Times today had a story about the UAW renegotiating hourly rates from $70 an hour to $57 an hour, and happy to keep the jobs. Non-union auto workers are making about $50 an hour. They have come to realize that this is just the new world they live in and they can get on board or stay at the station and watch the train leave.

The Red phenomenon is just another example of some of the fundamental changes going on in our business. Look how fast cine lenses went from high-priced, handmade specialty items, to accessible tools for ordinary production people." (Rob Gardner)

People want $4000 cameras (latest discussion about the price of the Scarlet for example) and rent them out for $500 a day, so they "pay for them self" in 8 days? Come on, get real. I don´t want to rain into the parade, but everyone was raving about the "Game Change" since the original DVX. There you have it - the game is changed.

Here you can hire a DP including a full blown RED package for $345 a day.

http://www.natetieman.com/Cinematography/RED_One_Rental.html


It still comes down to ability and what one does with the tools at hand.

But let´s face it, there will be blood.

Frank
 
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Good info guys. I think its interesting to note what the kind of shoot is. As I stated its on air cable TV not corporate gigs. For a corporate gig I wouldn't expect 500, but for TV I think 500 is reasonable.
 
I agree with Postmaster, no offense to anyone.

I'm in pre-production here in Toronto for a reality based TV show to be shown on cable. I've got a line-up 4 pages long of people wanting to work on this show, so I can pick and choose who I want and how much I charge. Sure, $500 may have been the going rate when the economy was firing on all cylinders but not now.

I can hire kids out of film school now who have their own 7D or equilivent kits and pay them $200 a day and they would be thrilled with that because it's work in a field where it's hard to find work.

So, in the end, you'll have to figure out what's best for you. The production companies have the upper hand right now... they have lists of people who will do it for cheaper perhaps.

For me, the way I see it for my production, it's reality TV, not an oscar worthy film, so I will look for an experienced person first who's willing to come down in price. If not, then an experienced film graduate. Either way, someone will fill the void and every penny saved makes me more money.

Don't take offense to my post please, I'm only talking from a business perspective, I'm all about the money right now.
 
JonathanLB said:
I consider $300/day to be the going rate for a good DP on corporate / industrial work, at least. I won't pay more than that and I can get very good quality for that...$500 is steep and $250 for a camera that isn't worth anything per day, that's an ouch, haha. I have hired in the business for three years now and consistently paid $300/day and gotten at least 10-20 very good reels and resumes for those openings, and 75 or so total applications. No reason to offer more money, that's the market price.
Click to expand...

I think that's your market price, Jonathan. Many discussions on rates have been had on this forum, and when ever you share your philosophy, is seems to have the same tone. Its fair for you to share your experiences and opinions, but please do not expect others to agree with them.

I would imagine you are billing the client quite a bit more than $300/day, as that is the way business works. Does that mean that the going rate is what you are paying or what you are biling? Remember, we are not talking about you hiring your regular guy who has relationship with you and possibly even a steady pay check from you, we are talking about a fair freelancer's rate.

I personally have no problem with a lower rate of $300 a day if I choose to go that direction. There are also times when I need a cheap shooter because of the nature of the budget of a project I am producing. In that case, I have no problem paying a shooter less than the going rate and he/she should have no problem with it as well - we will have agreed that it is simply the compensation for said project. It is not, however, the going day rate for a good freelance DP.


Jason
 
Comparing the rate to a well known reality production company... A/C's get somewhere around 200/day, and camera operators 400-500/day. So yes 300 is low.

But it sounds like you and the client came to a rate both of you were happy with. So congrats.
 
dalethompson said:
I can hire kids out of film school now who have their own 7D or equilivent kits and pay them $200 a day and they would be thrilled with that because it's work in a field where it's hard to find work.
Click to expand...

And you'll get **** work and that's what you'll deliver to your client...are you okay with delivering **** work to your client?
 
thekeygun said:
Comparing the rate to a well known reality production company... A/C's get somewhere around 200/day, and camera operators 400-500/day. So yes 300 is low.
Click to expand...

$300 seems low now, cause we used to get much more.
I know, nobody wants to hear that, but you better get used to $300, or even $100 a day.
Things are changing and it will take quite a while (maybe more than 10-15 years) till we come back to those higher rates again - if ever.

As I said, there will be blood.

Frank
 
subtleinspiration:

You're assuming people out of film school deliver horrible work. There are three film schools here in Toronto with lots of talented people graduating from it. Trust me, there are camera ops who deliver some really good work... what do you think they've been doing in school this whole time? I've seen work from people right out of school and it's fantastic. You have to remember too, these kids grew up with digital cameras, this is the new generation of film and tv talent, they are already 2-3 steps ahead of my generation right now in terms of understanding the technology, using it and even buying it.

And it's reality TV too, it's not a feature film. I've seen shaky camera work and bad angles on most reality tv shows. If a reality tv show looks too pretty or perfect, is it really reality then?

Again, I have to agree with Postmaster, it's a new world out there now. Look at the auto industry, people used to getting $35, $50, $70 an hour have either lost their jobs or got their salaries severely slashed. Look at any industry really and you'll see rates dropping for work everywhere. The film/TV industry is no different. If five DP are looking for work, one wants $500 but the others accept $300, then they'll choose lower everytime. Reality is that when the economy is shaking, advertisers are looking for better deals, which means less $$$ for networks, which means less $$$ for budgets, which means less $$$ for staff. The writing has been on the wall for a few years now, it's just that people have either tried to ignore it or refused to believe it.

You think you deserve $500 a day, that's fine, maybe you do with experience. The market dicates differently though and there will always be someone willing to do it cheaper because of the economy.
 
But, more often than not, you get what you pay for. And, generally speaking as well, clients getting their pick of the litter from "film schools" are usually those who live in an area with a large or prestigious one. Elsewhere, the "cheaper" worker is not going to be as good.

Here's the deal: often these jobs (and I'm talking overall, not just reality shooting) want to pay at a level where you'll break even, yet require you to bring equipment to the table. Now, perhaps I'm alone in this, but I don't have a trustfund and thousands of dollars at my disposal to just spend on equipment. $300 a day would barely cover an HVX rental, not to mention hiring someone to work it. I agree the market is depressed, but we're not talking outlandish pay here, simply enough to pay the rent and keep up with equipment purchases/fixes that will help you get the job and do the job. Now, if the equipment is being provided, then it's not such a big deal, but more often than not they want you to bring something to the table (HD camera, lav mics, lights, ect).
 
I understand what you are saying subtleinspiration, but it´s over.

Work for 300 or less and bring your HVX, Firestore and some lights.
Oh, you don´t have a HVX and lights? Well sorry, but you are OUT!

Sounds harsh? Yeah, but that´s the way it´s gonna be.
Like it or not.

But wait, there is light at the end of the tunnel.
Here in Germany I can already rent a HVX200 or a EX1 for 39 Euros.
So it will hit the rentalhouses in the same way. Most of their expensive DigiiBetas for example are boat anchors already. Most of their equipment will be worth next to nothing soon (maybe dollies keep their price), so renting will be cheap.

Frank
 
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wow. you guys are harsh. Broadcast reality tv can be cheap when it comes to rates, but $300/day to DP is not a fair rate for a show that has been sold to air somewhere. Glad you were able to get more money. I agree that different markets dictate different rates and you can't expect to always make "your rate". But, you need to have some standards too and there's nothing wrong with passing on a job if you feel like you're being taken advantage of. Especially if you can pay your rent without it. There's nothing worse than a crew of cranky people because they all feel like they've been undervalued.
 
Postmaster said:
"

The New York Times today had a story about the UAW renegotiating hourly rates from $70 an hour to $57 an hour, and happy to keep the jobs. Non-union auto workers are making about $50 an hour. They have come to realize that this is just the new world they live in and they can get on board or stay at the station and watch the train leave.


Frank
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You make some great points Frank. Just to clarify something though about auto worker wages. My roommate is an auto worker who works on an assembly line for General Motors. The renegotiated rates you listed are the UAW workers' total compensation, including hourly wage, healthcare, retiree, time off and other benefits, calculated as a per hour rate. When they quote $50 or $70 an hour, that is for all of the works benefits. A worker making $70.00 an hour in wages, would be paid $140,000.00 a year (8 hours a day, 5 days a week, 50 weeks a year). Now auto workers get paid well, but not that well, and things are changing for them also.

My roommate has relatively low seniority (about 8 years) and was "Re-Tiered" (really got the sh*t end of the stick, contract wise) and her hourly wages (actual pay rate) went from about $28.00/hour to just over $15.00/hour. Things are tough all over.

My reaction to the OP is first, that is a hard news hit for your day rate, but you may actually come out ahead in the long run. Part of the calculation of a free lancer's day rate has to be compensation for the real lack of steady, guaranteed work (as opposed to a job type job). Even though the producers of the reality show do not want to pay your normal free lancer day rate, are they not offering you a relatively long stretch of work? While you make more, per day, shooting under your normal freelance rate, aren't you going to be working more days than you would normally as a freelancer? Your business expenses should also decrease working a longer gig with the reality show, correct, as during the time you are working for them, most of you day to day needs (meals, travel, etc) will be on their nickel? Not to mention, you will not need to be spending money in the "Constant Hustle" (looking for the next gig), while you have the extended gig with the show.

Good luck.
 
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