RE: Video wanted, No Pay, but Great Exposure
- Thread starter Psynema
- Start date
It's rather humorous how so many people want professional video produced for free. From real estate agents to venues, bands, restaurants and more. Sure pal. How about you give me a car from your lot for free? Or better yet, how about we trade a high end production for what you sell at your business?
You can have hundreds of thousands worth of gear and decades of experience, but its not worth anything to them. Yet what they have IS equal to gold.
You can have hundreds of thousands worth of gear and decades of experience, but its not worth anything to them. Yet what they have IS equal to gold.
Psynema
Well-known member
It's rather humorous how so many people want professional video produced for free. From real estate agents to venues, bands, restaurants and more. Sure pal. How about you give me a car from your lot for free? Or better yet, how about we trade a high end production for what you sell at your business?
You can have hundreds of thousands worth of gear and decades of experience, but its not worth anything to them. Yet what they have IS equal to gold.
Ah good to hear some reason. I shared this on Reddit https://www.reddit.com/r/videography/ to which a few video people defended the honor of craigslist ads and said I was being a jerk...One of the ads I put in there was a marketing agency trying to get free labor to sell videos to his clients...not cool, especially from that guy's client's perspective.
I don't have issue with narrative or charity based ads (although 20 free music video ones in a row is annoying).
But honestly, everyone does free work, including myself. It NEVER works when they ask you or you respond to an ad, you just get more people asking for free videos.
The best way is YOU GO TO THEM with a vision. Thing is it's NOT about the video being on your site or shown to a crowd of people - they have to WANT TO WATCH IT. Better options for EXPOSURE - stay at home and make something creative you'd like to make. Even a VLOG talking into a camera will get you more EXPOSURE than filming some dude's performance or an established company looking for marketing material.
Andrius Simutis
Veteran
I think it would be fun to get someone who's never shot anything, or better yet a performance artist, to respond to all these no pay production ads, then you film the BTS to show what you're really going to get with a no fee video production. Basically turn them into a sting. I'm thinking the production version of Spike Jonze's Torrance Community Dance Group
.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJ8vOspxnT0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJ8vOspxnT0
Psynema
Well-known member
I personally give narrative/charity events a pass. The video is a gag, so don't take it too harshly like some do on other sites LOL. But it's pretty much aimed at the commercial world - ie "We're an event planning company and have a speaker from google but they didn't budget for video, can you film it for us and it'll be shown to 400 people etc".
scorsesefan
Veteran
Love the blood shot eyes...
Psynema
Well-known member
Barry_Green
Moderator
Probably barter. Something on the order of "I'll work on your film if you'll work on mine." Something of actual, tangible value, rather than making demands and promising "exposure". Favors should be returned, not demanded...
ugafan
Looking for a woman
well i could definitely use your help, barry. i don't have much to offer, unless you need help writing a chapter on safety when filming with the dvx200. i'm picturing an elaborate aerial shot where the cameraman has to jump from a roof and land on a trampoline, which bounces him over a privacy fence and into a swimming pool. but unfortunately he misses the trampoline and gets badly injured.
kwkeirstead
Well-known member
No pay, no video
Does it matter any more? There's always someone somewhere willing to work for free in exchange for a promise of a dream. Sure, the pros will stay away, but so what... the old saying "you get what you pay for" has no bite left because people are more and more willing to accept marginal or poor quality... pretty soon the proud pros delivering good work will be like high end bespoke tailors in an age of mass produced clothing - sure it's unbeatable quality to have a real high end tailor make clothes especially for you, but it's a very small group of people who can or want to afford that - for the mass of users, even wealthy ones, off the rack has been the norm for so long that the bespoke tailors are not even a relevant part of the clothing industry anymore even though once upon a time that's all you had pretty much. The world is evolving, technology becomes more and more affordable, and the flood of people who can buy these tools is practically limitless. You get what you pay for, but if that's good enough, well, it's good enough.
At least we all have the individual choice still. Why kill yourself to make some idiot happy, working 10 hours shooting for $75?
The same technical skills that we use to build our computers and using editing software can earn you $25 to $75 an hour doing computer consulting. So instead of starving to death and driving a $300 car while doing hard, manual labor for assholes, get a part time computer gig that pays 3x to 5x to 10x as much, work 20 hours, and invest 30 hours a week in your own creative projects. That is a lot more emotionally satisfying anyway.
I actually closed my studio here in Michigan in 2008 mostly due to chronic pain. I had been doing some fashion work for local boutiques and similar, but most went under with our "depression." We were hit pretty hard.
Then there was the local trendy fashion/ sporting good store that wanted me to shoot product for their web site for $100 a day. At the time I was hauling about $10,000 of Broncolor studio equipment for location work and owned an $8,000 camera. With flash tubes costing $500 new, I wasn't willing to take a lot of risk for $100. Especially when my camera at the time was renting for $350 a day. It made more sense to rent out the camera, let it onto while I sat home and watched tv, and make more money than shooting....
I am sort of exaggerating of course (Sort of- the numbers are accurate, and I had two of those potential $100 clients that I didn't tell to get f'ed quickly enough.) But I had a younger guy with little business sense who I was trying to help out. Letting him use my studio, hiring him as an assistant. He went bankrupt chasing low end jobs, trying to make a living off of Craigslist. I finally told him he would make a lot more working for minimum wage at McDonalds. Then doing his own, creative work in his free time. Plus he was so burnt out after doing 27 revisions until 3:00 am, for a $50 Craigslist job- that then slow paid him. he never had the energy to do any creative work for his own portfolio anyway ....
As someone with professors as friends, who used to go to Society for Photographic Education conferences, I do have a lot of concern for the industry. There is no way for newer professionals to support themselves for 3-5-10 years, to make a reasonable living while also building their skills and business acumen.
And of course all of these wannabes' and low-ballers have less than 0 business acumen. Who needs health insurance, business insurance, depreciation recovery on equipment, or a reasonable base rate for their time .... This is glamorous work! Exposure! My name in a magazine!
Cheers!
The same technical skills that we use to build our computers and using editing software can earn you $25 to $75 an hour doing computer consulting. So instead of starving to death and driving a $300 car while doing hard, manual labor for assholes, get a part time computer gig that pays 3x to 5x to 10x as much, work 20 hours, and invest 30 hours a week in your own creative projects. That is a lot more emotionally satisfying anyway.
I actually closed my studio here in Michigan in 2008 mostly due to chronic pain. I had been doing some fashion work for local boutiques and similar, but most went under with our "depression." We were hit pretty hard.
Then there was the local trendy fashion/ sporting good store that wanted me to shoot product for their web site for $100 a day. At the time I was hauling about $10,000 of Broncolor studio equipment for location work and owned an $8,000 camera. With flash tubes costing $500 new, I wasn't willing to take a lot of risk for $100. Especially when my camera at the time was renting for $350 a day. It made more sense to rent out the camera, let it onto while I sat home and watched tv, and make more money than shooting....
I am sort of exaggerating of course (Sort of- the numbers are accurate, and I had two of those potential $100 clients that I didn't tell to get f'ed quickly enough.) But I had a younger guy with little business sense who I was trying to help out. Letting him use my studio, hiring him as an assistant. He went bankrupt chasing low end jobs, trying to make a living off of Craigslist. I finally told him he would make a lot more working for minimum wage at McDonalds. Then doing his own, creative work in his free time. Plus he was so burnt out after doing 27 revisions until 3:00 am, for a $50 Craigslist job- that then slow paid him. he never had the energy to do any creative work for his own portfolio anyway ....
As someone with professors as friends, who used to go to Society for Photographic Education conferences, I do have a lot of concern for the industry. There is no way for newer professionals to support themselves for 3-5-10 years, to make a reasonable living while also building their skills and business acumen.
And of course all of these wannabes' and low-ballers have less than 0 business acumen. Who needs health insurance, business insurance, depreciation recovery on equipment, or a reasonable base rate for their time .... This is glamorous work! Exposure! My name in a magazine!
Cheers!
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alaskacameradude
Veteran
I'm guessing here, but some of this probably depends on the economy in your location.
If people and businesses aren't making money in the area you live, well, let's face it, video
is kind of a 'luxury' and not a necessity. Food, housing, clothing, transportation, those things
are the first priorities. But if you are in an area where businesses are expanding, and need
help marketing themselves online, organizations want a video for fundraising (donations),
TV networks need some interviews shot, ad agencies need help shooting or editing projects
that they don't have enough staff for, well, you may still get work. There is a ton of content
out there, sure, quite a bit of it is 'free content'. But there are still paying jobs out there (at least
in places where the economy continues to hum along) for all kinds of things. Every year for the
last 3 years, I have had a better year than the one before. So i'm not sure that I'm buying into
this doom and gloom of 'No one willing to pay for quality anymore'.
Maybe I'm wrong and it will come to that. Not saying it couldn't happen, because as I said, video
is really not a 'basic need.' Because I live in an area where the economy isn't as bad as it is in many
other places, I still see a decent amount of work.....at least so far......
However, I have definitely been making money in different ways than before. Lots of web based
videos. Plenty of shooting content and sending it via FTP (and occasionally Fed Ex) for documentary crews,
Ad agencies, and Production companies that would rather hire me than fly someone to my location.
I also just got back from a week on the road shooting a film. I was paid a decent day rate as DP.
The money was raised by the producer/director of the film on Kickstarter......
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One of the more serious problems I haven't seen mentioned here is the fact that low pay isn't synonymous with low quality.
There are kids out of college who actually have a few years experience shooting, editing, doing VFX for some fairly demanding school projects. They may even bought gear at educational discounts or otherwise with the help of their parent.
They have no business acumen and, wanting to have commercial work for their reel, take on no pay work and produce good results.
Of course eventually they want to get paid for their work but the client (vulture) then moves on to find the next "victim."
There's a steady stream of talented people with no business sense, to feed off of.
There are kids out of college who actually have a few years experience shooting, editing, doing VFX for some fairly demanding school projects. They may even bought gear at educational discounts or otherwise with the help of their parent.
They have no business acumen and, wanting to have commercial work for their reel, take on no pay work and produce good results.
Of course eventually they want to get paid for their work but the client (vulture) then moves on to find the next "victim."
There's a steady stream of talented people with no business sense, to feed off of.
Andrius Simutis
Veteran
I have no problem with this. A friend's band recently made a music video that they had no budget for. The singer is a house painter so they traded services with a talented DP who's house needed painting. His house is nicely painted and the band has a pretty good video. I really don't see anything wrong with that.
I think more and more anyone wanting to shoot content for low or no budget will just do it themselves. Who can't shoot and edit 4K with a. iPhone 6s? If you can't figure that out you shouldn't be directing or producing anything. When you wanted something that didn't look like a. Crappy soap opera in the days of depth of field adapters and tons of post production to feta decent image it made more sense to con some college kid into shot it for free because who has time to fiddle around with all that gear and software? Now I think when people see these ads wanting free camera work they'll just say hey! Go shoot it on your iPhone in 4K and put it on the web. It will look great, and it probably will look pretty darn good compared to the ad video from back in the day.
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hscully
Veteran
I think that bartering is fine but it's often difficult to quantify each other's efforts. For instance, I've had people work on my films, and I've worked on theirs. I'm happy to do it and don't really fret about who's worth more on the day. It's for the community and I'm in.
However, when it comes to the gear, I'm paying big cold cash so I gotta get something. If someone wants to rent something, or has something and wants me to DP or operate, cool, but I'm not hauling in my rig, support and lenses for nothing.
I was faced with this recently. They guy said, great I'll work on yours you work on mine. Cool, says I, it's $$$ a day for the rig and if you want to barter further, I'll tell you what, get me <mutual friend working on his shoot> to work on mine and I'll go 1/2 on the rig. It didn't happen. He said, "I can't volunteer any one, but you can ask him." Ah but now who's favor is it?
One other thing about bartering instead of paying... volunteers can withdraw without compunction. It's a balance, for sure. The bartering stops at post. At least a day of shooting is a day... editing is not a good place for barter.
However, when it comes to the gear, I'm paying big cold cash so I gotta get something. If someone wants to rent something, or has something and wants me to DP or operate, cool, but I'm not hauling in my rig, support and lenses for nothing.
I was faced with this recently. They guy said, great I'll work on yours you work on mine. Cool, says I, it's $$$ a day for the rig and if you want to barter further, I'll tell you what, get me <mutual friend working on his shoot> to work on mine and I'll go 1/2 on the rig. It didn't happen. He said, "I can't volunteer any one, but you can ask him." Ah but now who's favor is it?
One other thing about bartering instead of paying... volunteers can withdraw without compunction. It's a balance, for sure. The bartering stops at post. At least a day of shooting is a day... editing is not a good place for barter.
David W. Richardson
Chapelgrove Films
There's a flip side to that -- pay isn't synonymous with better quality either.
I've worked on shoots where people were paid -- some quite well -- and their work was considerably less than stellar. And, in some cases, so were their attitudes.
David W. Richardson
Chapelgrove Films
I wish. Today a great many PC owners are fully capable of doing it themselves. What they don't know, they can learn from a YouTube video or an online forum. For those few left who would rather pay someone to do it, it's a buyer's market -- flooded with plenty of qualified, experienced people to choose from.