RE: Clients and P2 Card Rentals

mountainmedia

mountainmedia

Well-known member
RE: Clients and P2 Card Rentals

So - like a lot of you - I've been in this crazy business awhile. Long enough to remember the "joys" of linear editing and 3/4" tape. Now that many of us have made the transition away from tape, I've come to a curious observation.

Clients - the majority of whom wouldn't think twice about bringing/paying for a case or two of tape stock for a shoot - now seem to expect their shooters to have as many P2 cards as will be required. I currently own two 32GB cards and that's enough for the majority of my shoot days, but when additional storage space is needed, it seems I'm expected to furnish additional cards without thought given to the rental expense I'm incurring (which is as much as $40/day for a 32GB card).

So - what's everyone around here doing in this regard? Do you charge your client should extra P2 storage be needed on a shoot? I know you can offload footage in the field, but realistically this takes too long (especially for a 64GB card) to be practical. Also, with tape the client is walking away with the footage and something physically tangible - with P2 they're probably walking away with a HDD full of footage. Should that factor into the decision...?
 
Sorry for the incorrect usage of commas, I am medicated due to the flu-

Thanks Mountain Media for starting this thread. I am very interested in how other freelance DPs with 2 slots are dealing with this. Hybrids like DP/Editors, DP/Prod Co Owners, have different issues. Dealing with 2 slot P2 as a freelance DP, especially if the client is going to the airport at the end of the shoot day, P2 is a sticky issue. This is a major problem I have been grappling with since P2 started, is tough with just 2 slots, and I hope in the long run Sony's disc system prevails...

Here Goes: Clients and directors don't want to hear about slowing the shoot for downloads or hiring a media wrangler or extra costs for more cards or overtime for downloading after hours, etc. Plus, we may be competing against shooters or prod cos who have more slots than the 300 or more cards. Here's what I do, and what I will be doing now that I found out Santa was cheap last Xmas and didn't bring me 64s...

I try to find out a few days in advance if the shoot will be 1080 or 720, and can I go 24PN or 30PN. This gives me an inkling of whether I need more than the 2-32s I own (wish I bought 64s!) and must rent. Also, I forewarn the client that in ADDITION to a lunch break I need to do the download in a safe place preferably with AC electricity for 20 minutes. When I say "safe" I mean not on a shelf in a grip truck or while it's drizzling, etc. If they don't like that idea I say we could "rent" more cards. The word "rent" suggests that this will "cost more", but it's really important to clarify "rent" means "client pays". I confirm the extra card rental issue in an email along with other extras like parking, Fed Ex, buying a hard drive, etc. so if they complain at the invoice I refer them to the extras issue in the email and on the estimate.

All clients fall into one of two categories: those spending their own money and those spending their company's money. Those spending their own money are the ones who we must more carefully spell out the extra money for extra record time issue. But all clients love to maximize their shooting time during the day and when I say more cards, less download breaks, they like that. The sticky issue is the situation where a client is used to the previous DP having more cards or slots than you do.

Here's what I do now, it is based on what I consider the standard package. They get 2 wireless mics. Need more? Pay more. We have 2-32s, which seems to be the "standard", need more? Pay more.

Some types of clients don't even realize we have stomachs and that a lunch break should have been scheduled, let alone that there must be download time. Plus I have had very experienced clients, the ones that can afford catering, who think, "The DP can download during his lunch break." Not only am I hungry but I need my lunch break to get back to other clients to set up my next gigs. I do like to "tech check" by lunch, mainly for audio, but I do that in camera and don't want to establish a precedent of giving up my meal breaks.

So here's the biz procedure I am developing based on the old one regarding time code dubs: You, Dear Client, pay a little more for more cards and we don't download during your obviously over-scheduled day and knowing you are too frugal to hire a media wrangler. I will download your media AFTER DINNER AT HOME to a hard drive you brought on the day of the shoot (or reimburse me for one of mine) and you pay for Fed Ex or messenger. This has worked well on ONE DAY shoots so far. It is the same flow I used on making VHS or DVD time code dubs although I did not do that for free but rather at 50% off what it would have cost them at the editors or some facility. Clients appreciate the fast turn around. This also allows me to see my raw work, a habit from film days called "rushes".

One negative feature about the 300 is that it has only 2 slots. That may feel normal if you're coming from a HVX200 but if you are used to models with 5 slots it feels like swimming with boots on. In my market I am competing against guys with 2700s, 500s, etc and they can shoot till the cows come home if they bring enough cards. Undoubtably they will charge a fee for after shoot downloading, so I stay competitive by doing it gratis. Since Santa forgot to bring me 2-64s, I think I will get them soon, but I have found 2-32s, on a job where the client has specifically requested 1080, is not enough for a typical day, even when I do several downloads. I feel I am busy enough as DP than to have to think about how much time is left on the cards, where's a good place to set up the download laptop, etc.

Another cost saving technique is that I have asked all my regular crew members if they, or their roommates or significant others, own P2 cards. The younger ones who are auteurs and Jack-of-all-Trades often have P2 cards and I ask them to bring them, we'll pay if we use them. This is the same model as asking the sound men to bring extra wireless mics ala carte.

Once I buy 2-64s this will be my new biz flow: I will just download during the wrap (unless there is a non-meal break during the day) and hopefully get some overtime, for which I will have forewarned them. The rest of the crew can go home but, perhaps at a restaurant or bar, the client and I can continue the download. Most decent clients will also pay for dinner and drinks and that's a win-win. Otherwise I will do it at home after dinner and the trick will be not to drink too much at dinner.

So what are other 2 slot P2 freelance shooters doing in hyper competitive markets? My greatest fear harkens back to the film days: Running out of media (tape wasn't a problem) during Golden Hour! So here's a present to my friends:

http://www.b-roll.net/goldenhour/

You can tell by the length of this email I am cooped up at home for days with the flu!

Later,

Ned
 
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Hey Ned,
We go by what the Rental houses send out as standard in NY (Usually 2 16 gig cards) and then try and make the process as painless as possible for the client as far as harddrives. It is not as easy as tape in this regard.
 
I supply two 16GB cards as part of the camera package rental charge. Anything past that, client pays the prevailing rates in LA for P2 card rental. If we are shooting sit down interviews, I can shoot all day with two 16GB cards and my laptop. But if we are running around, etc. they are paying for more P2 cards.

Dan
 
I have four 32gb A ser cards and I then dump and verify each night to the two portable 160gb USB drives I use as client back-up.

I then keep the USB drives and give the client a copy of the media in native AVC pro res on their own 500gb drive as most of my clients are using FCP.
 
Thanks for the replies. I see this as an important issue so I hope we get more thoughts and opinions. It seems bizarre to me that we've gone through such a paradigm shift in only a few years where clients no longer expect to pay for the media used on a shoot (whether it be P2, HDD or SxS) unless it's tape!

nedcam said:
One negative feature about the 300 is that it has only 2 slots. ... In my market I am competing against guys with 2700s, 500s, etc and they can shoot till the cows come home if they bring enough cards. Undoubtably they will charge a fee for after shoot downloading, so I stay competitive by doing it gratis.
Click to expand...

I see the number of slots as a non-issue - at least in this respect. Even if the HPX300 had 8 slots, you'd still have to fill them with media! If - like you and me - one only has two 32GB P2 cards (which is enough for 75% of their work), then why shouldn't the client pay the rental fee to fill the other slots? That or - as you alluded to - expect to take a 45 minute or so break to dump the full cards? I think that's a reasonable choice - what does everyone else think?
 
Just to add I do make my clients pay and be responsible for their delivery drive, this has to be a firewire 800 7,200 rpm media drive and once I have delivered the rushes in native AVC Intra pro res 422 they then have to do their own back-ups and any re-transcoding of media is chargeable.

I also get a confirmation from their editor that they are happy that they have everything they need for the edit, once they have signed it off the P2 USB back-up drives are erased. They also have the option to buy the USB drives if they wish so they have a clone of the P2 media and a pro res copy.

This is the way I have worked in audio dubbing too where we did exabyte back-ups but would not guarantee the media so advised the clients to buy their own removable hard drives.

£200-£300 for hard drive media is a small price to pay when you have 6 days worth of a drama shoot involved and they can write it off as the modern day tape costs.

If they feel they need more than 4x32gb P2 cards then they are charged for the extras but I find that that is enough for two days worth of shooting so it allows an overlap for back-ups. I also have an old powerbook G4 if I need to wrangle media whilst shooting and this is included as part of the shooting package but verified USB transfer from the camera is my main nightly process whilst I sit in the pub relaxing.
 
When I shot BetaSP I never went on a shoot without a tape in the camera, 2 tapes in my waste pack, and a box of 10 in the car. At a minimum. That makes about 6 hours of tape. Often this was for a shoot that planned to shoot 30 minutes of tape.

2 32gb cards are only good for about 4 hours at the lowest res without downloading. Plus if you have one card downloading while you shoot, and one in the camera, you have NO backup.

For me 3 cards per camera is the absolute minimum. One downloading, one recording on, and one waiting to record. To be honest this is a little tight for me and I prefer 4 cards or more per camera.

As professionals it is irresponsible to go to a shoot without enough memory to record more then you need. What if the shoot runs long. What if a card craps out, what if download computer craps out. It's a matter of when not if something will go wrong. Be prepared. be ready.

I charge my clients a minimal charge for each card used. The way I figure it my clients are used to paying for expendable media. I have mostly E series cards and since these are good for about 2000 records each record uses up the lifespan of the card. Do the math on what you paid for the card divided by 2000 and you get what it costs for each record. You deserve to get compensated for this. I don't charge per record, just for use for the day.

I also offer my clients the option of providing a hard drive, buying one from me, or returning mine for a nominal rental charge. Again this is the cost of doing business.

So my answer is yes if I were a producer I would expect you to have on hand more than enough cards to cover the shoot. Yes I would be OK paying for them. Either a nominal fee for every card, or a full rental fee for more then a basic amount. this is my model, but I know there are others out there as well, and like the open discussion on this topic. Thanks for starting it.
 
If it matters, I own 8 P2 cards, a mix of 8s and 16s so I bring 96GBs of storage to every shoot but I only include the two 16GBs in the camera package rental cost. I charge $40.00 per 8Gb card and $80.00 per 16GB card. But it seems that lately, I have been shooting a lot of interviews and I rarely have needed more than the two 16GBs. But when I shoot EPK or run and gun, I definitely let the client know that we will be needing more P2 cards and I can supply them or they can supply them.

I agree, I would never go to a shoot with only two 16GB cards. Too much chance of messing up and running out of space if there is no time to dump.

Dan
 
Hi Mountain Media,

I meant that more slots with larger cards in them means I don't have to deal with media dumping as much or as soon. It would be the equivalent of a case of betas.

Hey 2 Hungry Dogs (I always have 2 hungry dogs here),

Very interesting idea about charging for card usage from the get go, I didn't think about that. I no longer want the clients to Fed Ex my drives back because I read that spinning hard drives, if you ever drop them, that can start a slow chain of events. I don't like using non-AC powered drives because my lap top won't power them thru the USB. And you are right: the client shouldn't have to consider a non-issue like, "Will my shooter bring enough media?", and you're also right about the laptop can crap out in the field. After all, they crap out in my warm office.

And Gary,

What is "whilst"?



Just kiddin
 
nedcam said:
And you are right: the client shouldn't have to consider a non-issue like, "Will my shooter bring enough media?", and you're also right about the laptop can crap out in the field. After all, they crap out in my warm office.
Click to expand...


Ned,

I know I'm right, but it's nice to hear someone else say it for a change, instead of just me being the only one saying it. :happy:

Did that article about dropping HDDs mention if it made a difference if it was spinning at the time of the drop. Most HDDs these days auto park the heads when the power is off. I can see it being a problem if it's spinning, or with a severe drop, but packaged properly you shouldn't have any trouble from a shipped drive. Just make sure it's in a big enough box with plenty of padding.
 
So it sounds like the consensus so far - if there is such a thing - is that most of us have two cards from 16-32GB in size. If our client needs more, we tell them ahead of time that:

a) they'll need to bring extra P2 cards with them, or

b) we'll supply them (by renting) and they'll cover the extra charge, or

c) we'll have to take a "media dump break" at some point during the day to transfer the files and then wipe the card

That seems to make sense to me. I wholeheartedly agree that a client shouldn't have to worry about having enough media for their given project. BUT...they should also expect to cover the charge for needing additional media during the shoot. Again, harkening back to the days of a client bringing a case of tape with them or buying it from us, I don't know why any client would expect to not have to cover this charge.

The whole reason this got into my head was that I recently rented my HPX300 to a colleague for a week-long shoot and the client needed extra storage space (read P2 cards) for each day. My friend ended up renting an additional 64GB P2 card at around $200 and was wondering if the client would cover it. They said "no." He's not thrilled with that and I don't blame him. Then came the evening dumping of the footage to his portable USB drive and then the producer's laptop. Took him an extra 1-2 hours each evening - after shooting wrapped - to manage all this media and he got no overtime. Seems like this needs to be addressed by shooters worldwide. I'm glad we're having this discussion...
 
• There is some software, (I think it's called Shot Put?) that sends the media download to 2 hard drives simultaneously. I've got to get that. That cuts the transfer time in half if you were going to make a redundant hd backup.

• I had read about the 2 main reasons for hd failure, I believe it was on a Lacie forum, because I was pissed at Lacie that one of their drives went down, with a clicking noise meaning it's unrecoverable. What seared into my memory were 2 points made about why hd fails: excessive random access (meaning change to new drives every now and then), and dropping it. It did not say about heads being disengaged but I don't know who could drop a drive when it is in use unless your dog is chasing your cat or your monkey gets out of its cage. Btw, I now edit to a mirrored raid with separate power supplies going to different circuits (power surges + lightning).

• Another point: I no longer use the word "dump" around clients. I think of someone with their pants around their ankles reading a magazine. It is now a "media transfer". Have some class people...

• I miss making an easy $100 a day marking up a case of betas! But the clients don't equate our expense on P2 cards as something they have to share in. I'm just going to bury it somehow. Like I now do with crew lunch since there's a movement away from the client picking up lunch I have noticed.

• Got a bid in, looks like I'll get it, LENGTHY speakers at podium (hey, I got two kids in out of state colleges on the 5 year plan!). I don't think it's HD so I'm thinking of going IEEE1394 out to my Sony DSR 20 DVCAM deck in SD, that allows tapes of 184 minutes!. If it does go HD I don't know what to do. Mountain Media says 2 slots is no handicap? Well, how do I "hot swap" the cards in the middle of the presentation without jiggling the camera which will be on maximum telephoto? And also on imag for the audience to see? How can we hot swap without ruining a telephoto shot? Splain me that. By the way comrades, the 300 at 55' on maximum tele takes a belly button up shot of a grown man, I just measured it for the client. Write that down now. Gary will have to convert that to metric. So if it goes HD, and I can talk them into 720/30PN, and maybe rent a 64, maybe then I can do speakers? This is taking into account that I may not be able to dump, excuse me, transfer, when I want and I would run the risk of running out of media in the mid of a speech? With this client the police would never find my body...

• So in conclusion I think I will buy 1 or 2 64s (I need the expense like a hole in the head) and just "bury" the cost by jacking up the overall rate a little, informing the client that we work on a 10 hr day and I must start my transfer at a specific time to avoid overtime, or if he would prefer to maximize his shoot day I could do it later at night or first thing next morning and he pays for the messenger/FedEx and the price of the drive, which I write on the bottom in sharpie including tax. Perhaps I will charge for my home time? Depends on the client and amount of work. Also, I am trying to get some clients to go P2 and many hate it, so offering the transfer at home gratis may help? And if I get more cards I can use it as a competitive tool as in, "Dear Prospect, if you hire me you don't have to consider a media transfer for 4 hours (8 betas)!"

A certain percentage of my super efficient clients suggest I "do it on lunch break", as if I should take off my shoes and socks so my toes will run the laptop whilst I eat my sandwich? They guise it under the cloak of a "tech check" but I have smartened up and do that in camera and pass them the headphones. But giving up one's lunch break for media transfer is off topic.

As a Miller I declare it Miller Time (Central)
 
As long as you are not running and gunning you should be able to transfer one card while shooting to another card. I do this on a regular basis. I prefer a dedicated media wrangler, but not every shoot can budget for it.

The transfer runs pretty well unattended. A 32gb card takes 20-30 minutes. I take a 5 minute break when it's convenient, then go get the next few shots while the transfer runs. I check the progress every once in awhile if the shoot allows. There needs to be a safe spot for the transfer as mentioned earlier, but a lot of times I set it up on the cart I use to carry all the gear into the building. This minimizes the amount of transfer time at the end of the shoot, but a lot of shoots can transfer at least one card during the "wrap" time. In addition it helps to plan your transfers to maximize your time, sometimes I will pull a card early to start the transfer, because I know I won't have another break for a while and I can transfer that media in the mean time.

Yes this does take your attention away from the shoot, but I set the clients expectations before the shoot so they understand we will need this time. Also good to set expectations for transfer time afterwards.

Recently I had a client leave for the airport to catch an earlier flight as we wrapped. It was an easy shoot with lots of breaks, so I was transferring as we went. I transferred the last card durring the wrap. The airport was actually on my way home. I called the client and he met me outside to get the hard drive. It was a short day about 6 hours on a 10 hour rate, so it was still "on the clock" time.

It all comes down to client services. A regular client whose easy to work with and pays a good rate quickly gets the extra mile at no charge. The one time whiny client on a cut rate who worked us to death pays for the extra services.

- Ned

As for hot swapping the cards on maximum telephoto you are correct that it will introduce a slight jiggle. If you practice you should be able to minimize the jiggle, but probably never really eliminate it. if you have a speaker nailed to the podium you can do it with little jiggle that won't distract people. I would think in your situation you might have more trouble if you have a speaker who really moves around a lot and you have to pay attention to instead of looking away for a second to see you card slots. In that case an assistant would be good. Any jiggle they add won't be noticed as your camera is already moving following the speaker. They could also do the transfer while you continue shooting.
 
Forgot to mention. If we are eating on set I don't mind starting a transfer and watching it while I eat. if it's a walk away lunch maybe a different story. Aslo the above transfer workflow works best if you are mostly in one location. Run and gun, or multiple locations, then it's transfer at the end.
 
Semi- random thoughts.

Ned M - Shotput Pro rocks. Being able to download to multiple drives rocks. it is indeed a huge timesaver, well worth the price of admission. Highly recommended.

2 Hungry Dogs- Being able to line item bill for P2 media reminds me of the early days of digital capture in the still photo realm. Due to the novelty of the media, many were able to bill all sorts of digital charges. Now, not so much because it is the norm and the prices for the hardware have dropped. Bully to you for being able to pull that off, but I wonder how long that will be possible after solid state capture loses it's newness ? I charge for P2 to be sure, but as an integrated part of my package price and the cost of doing business. Do clients ever balk at a separate fee for the P2 media ?

Download billing:

It's clear from the discussion that we are talking about several different types of production and different types of client relationships- both of which have a bearing on billing for P2 hardware and P2 transferring considerations. Most of my clients are friends, and peers whether they be producers, directors or business collaborators. Most of the time I have the luxury of getting the files to them after the shoot date. I take the cards home and simultaneously (via Shotput Pro) download to my archive machine and to a portable drive to be given to the client. In the circumstances where the client needs to leave with the footage I download over a cappuccino at Starbucks or a similar establishment while the producer and I chat. Rarely, am I faced with having to download after a long day, while racing to finish by the end of the ten hour day. Again, if in that circumstance with a familiar and repeat client, I'd be inclined towards flexibility- within reason of course. Regardless, the discussions here are food for thought when I'm in a different set of circumstances ie; unfamiliar, out of town broadcast client who need to leave at the end of the day with the files.

Number of P2 cards/GB's included in camera package:

With my HPX-300 I bring (2) 32GB cards and (1) 64 GB. Only rarely have I tapped all three on a shoot ( except a broadcast client that I shoot 1080 30P for). If i did so on a regular basis with a client, I would definitely include download time as a billable expense and/ or charge for the GB's past a certain point. I'd definitely be less flexible. I haven't been in that situation more than a couple of times, so I haven't thought through it all the way.

Hardware/ workflow: For those times when I need to Fedex a drive or have a client Fed Ex one back, I use a Pelican 1150 case. It's just small enough that it fits in a large Fedex envelope- easy peasy. Of course, I graphically enhance both my drives and this case with my contact info and shipping address. Fingers crossed, but I've yet to have a drive go missing.

I confess that I'm not man enough to suffer through P2 downloads to USB drives- :-) . The longer I do the P2 thing, the more willing I've become to pay a premium for hardware that will speed things up. FW800 drives baby.... ! I'm a fan of Other World Computing's "drives on the go" series.

I also keep an inverter with multiple plug outlets in my truck for downloading in the vehicle. No more hoping with fingers crossed that my laptop battery will make it to the end of the download.

Good discussion folks.

Gotta hit the sack.
 
This is a great thread. It prompted me to write a blog entry on best practices for tapeless workflow. If anybody is interested in reading it, I'd appreciate any feedback:

http://ssvhd.blogspot.com

Thanks for the input!
 
I've heard about shotput pro, but haven't tried it yet. Have you done testing to see if the two drives slow down the front side bus vs using it one drive at a time?

BTW Mountainman - $200 for a 64gb card seems way out of line since you can buy A series cards for about $1000 from B&H. That's 5 rentals to pay for the card. I can rent a HDX900 with lens for about $800 in my area which is about a 30 to 1 ratio. The same math would put your card about $35. It seems like more then $50/day and your getting gouged. IMHO
 
2HungryDogs said:
I've heard about shotput pro, but haven't tried it yet. Have you done testing to see if the two drives slow down the front side bus vs using it one drive at a time?

BTW Mountainman - $200 for a 64gb card seems way out of line since you can buy A series cards for about $1000 from B&H. That's 5 rentals to pay for the card. I can rent a HDX900 with lens for about $800 in my area which is about a 30 to 1 ratio. The same math would put your card about $35. It seems like more then $50/day and your getting gouged. IMHO
Click to expand...

Joel,

I haven't tested it in the manner you suggest, that would be interesting to see the results. That being said, the second drive usually finishes a minute or so after the first one. BTW, it also does file verification. Sometimes, I'll also open up P2CMS to do a visual verification as well.
 
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