RCA 44bx Microphone for ADR

P

Paul F

Veteran
I'm doing an ADR session for a short film noir movie. The studio I'm going to has a nice collection of ribbon mics. They have an RCA 44-bx. I think it would be fun to try this mic as it would be period correct for the movie. Has anyone used it? Opinions about its sound?
 
It's been over 40 years since I used one, but my recollections are that the 44bx has a very low output (lots of good clean preamp gain required) and a very dull sounding high end. It's a vintage sound, alright, but not in a way that I found very pleasant to listen to.

- Greg
 
My memories are that ribbon mics sounded dull when recorded to analog tape, but can actually sound nice when recorded digitally (since there's less rolloff). But that's what I recall from hearing others talk about them in the early(ish) days of digital recording back in the early 80s. I was just a kid, but was hanging around recording studios including one with a Sony PCM system, and I asked way too many questions. More recently, I've been at sessions with Royer and AEA Ribbon mics; they sounded great on various instruments, but that was with a good engineer driving; I don't regularly record music anymore (just a little on location) and certainly don't engineer music sessions in a studio.

If it's a genuine old 44, I think what you'll get out of it will depend on the state of the ribbon. Can't hurt to do a couple quick tests, but have a backup plan (and mic). And maybe consider "relic'ing" the sound in post.

Also, for ADR I usually end up using the same mic as used on location...or at least as close to the same as practical. Do you mean automated dialog replacement (looping) or voiceover?

Anyway, have fun!
 
I would use the same mic as on location. An interesting sounding mic, but the low output could be an issue as well as the aged ribbon element.
 
How many mics can you get behind the same pop filter and still sound good? Having a vintage mic on one track, and modern mic on another might be useful as long as both can be on axis.

Just thinking out loud about what I might try if I was in a similar situation. But then you need to think about the fact that a very clean modern mic can always be processed to sound similar to that vintage mic.
 
The 44BX is bidirectional (hence; BX, IIRC), as in figure-8, so you could get people on each side of the mic.

Also, I recall a couple cool interviews with ribbon mic people in TapeOp. Ah; thanks Google.

Here's part of one with Wes Dooley of AEA who make recreations of 44s, I think with new-old-stock RCA ribbon material:
https://tapeop.com/interviews/btg/97/wes-dooley/

And here's one with a guy who worked at RCA and now repairs ribbon mics:
https://tapeop.com/interviews/btg/116/clarence-kane-enak-microphone-repair/

Those are both cool interviews (I really like TapeOp's interviews with people who make audio gear; so much passion for their craft).

So maybe the RCA 44-BX Paul will be using has been restored, or is a high-quality recreation (nothing wrong with that). So maybe it'll sound great and have decent output.

But and it'll be fun to use. But will the sound, even if it doesn't need to match field-recorded tracks, sound locationy? As in: will the sound like people gathered around a studio mic?

I guess Paul's about to find out. But if you can have at least a 416 or two around, that might not be such a bad backup plan.

Again Paul: Have fun! And bring us back some pictures!
 
Jim Feeley said:
.... But will the sound, even if it doesn't need to match field-recorded tracks, sound locationy? As in: will the sound like people gathered around a studio mic?
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Yes, I'm wondering the same. Being film noir, I'm not looking for reality and I'm definitely not looking for 21st century sound, as long as it is doesn't take the viewer out of the scene. I'm definitely open to the mic adding some character to the movie. I'd love it if it gave me that wax-paper-over-a-comb sound I hear in male voices in the '40s. But I think someone had it correct that it was not the mic, but probably perhaps the optical track that gave men that sound.
 
-Interesting choice, needs to be careful because a microphone this vintage needs to be extremely well maintained.

-Sensitivity is and will be an issue and so will be noise so I too recommend a pre-pre amp like the Cloudlifter (usually it's a small barrel the size of 2 XLR, running on phantom power and providing 15-20dB of gain before mic preamplifier)

-NEVER EVER ENGAGE PHANTOM POWER WITH A RIBBON MICROPHONE. You will destroy the aluminum ribbon element with DC voltage.

-Know how to position it. Ribbon mics have a figure of 8 directivity, thus needs a careful placement. You COULD use one to record two talents at the same time, each on one side of the mic but you need to be careful both sides are voiced the same. Some ribbon mic have a different from and back frequency response and so, sound. The Beatles have used Neumann U48 to record some vocals that way. (U48 is a U47 but the second available directivity being fig of 8)

-Think of having an U87 or other large membrane condenser as a backup. You could mix both microphones but be careful of phase.

Cheers.
Stéphane.
 
The figure 8 pattern gives me the possibility to have the two lead actors across from each other while they each loop a line instead of having one of them in the iso booth at a time going through their lines alone. I think they may prefer that. ADR is a sort of torture, so having a partner will help them.

I'm leaving the engineering up to the studio. I'm sure they won't let me swing around a 70 year old mic by myself. Yes, I've read that they do double pre-amps for these mics. They have a lot of mics, so if the 44 doesn't work out, I'll have alternatives. I like the two mic approach and recording them on separate tracks. They have a U87 and several other nice choices. Does anything else here look interesting (dynamics not listed).

Large Diaphragm Condensers

1 x AKG C12, Klaus Heyne Mod
1 x AKG C24, Klaus Heyne Mod
3 x AKG C414 XL
2 x AKG C414 EB
1 x Neumann U47
2 x Neumann U47 FET
1 x Neumann U48
2 x Neumann U87
1 x Neumann U89
1 x Neumann M249
2 x Telefunken ELAM 251, Klaus Heyne Mod
2 x Brauner VM-1 Klaus Heyne Edition
2 x Sony C37a
2 x Sony C38
Small Diaphragm Condensers

4 x AKG C452
1 x AKG C451 B
2 x Neumann KM84i
2 x Neumann KM88, Klaus Heyne Mod
2 x B&K 4009 (Matched 4006 with +130V phantom)
3 x Sanken CO-100k
1 x Crown PZM
Ribbons

2 x RCA 44BX
2 x RCA 77DX
6 x Royer R121
3 x Coles 4038
1 x Beyerdynamic m260
1 x AEA R88
 
The figure 8 pattern gives me the possibility to have the two lead actors across from each other while they each loop a line instead of having one of them in the iso booth at a time going through their lines alone. I think they may prefer that. ADR is a sort of torture, so having a partner will help them.
Click to expand...

The downside is that they will have to nail it because that track will be impossible to edit. I would not do it unless I didn't care if the sync got a bit sloppy.

You can have the second actor in an iso room and pipe them into the actors headphones if you need the back and forth banter, but if they are both on the same track it's going to be a nightmare to edit. The only time I have ever seen ADR used with no post editing to clean up sync and glitches is on screen in films where the miracle people lay down perfect ADR in one take... never happens in real life.

RE: mic etc.

I love mics that have a "sound" and if the ribbon works for you go for it. It is true however that a good clean recording can be altered to create much the same effect and with a lot more control. It's kind of where you want to do the work and make the choices. Something like "speakerphone" is an amazing tool for this kind of manipulation.

Speakerphone can also add some of the optical track noise and weirdness. A free plugin Vinyl from iZotope also can kind of get you there. To really get that sound you also need to filter top and bottom out as per the academy curve, basically nothing over 10K and nothing under about 100Hz. Depending on the year it was possible that the on set recordings were done to optical recorder, magnetic tape didn't hit Hollywood till after WWII ended. There is a box, if you can find one, that mix stages had that simulates an optical track playback. It wasn't to create the FX but to get an idea of what the release print would sound like.
 
I didn't make myself clear. I'll have them together, but only one of them will do a line/phrase per loop/take. The other will just be sitting there. Then the other actor will do line on a separate track and take. I think it will relieve the tedium a bit to alternate between the two of them and have another person in the room.
 
Paul F said:
Does anything else here look interesting (dynamics not listed).

1 x AKG C12, Klaus Heyne Mod
1 x AKG C24, Klaus Heyne Mod
3 x AKG C414 XL
2 x AKG C414 EB

3 x Coles 4038
1 x Beyerdynamic m260
1 x AEA R88
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If it's me (and it certainly is not), I go with any of these. If you really want that RCA sound (and I don't know why you would, but you might) go for the AEA R88, a better RCA than an actual RCA. But if you just want a period sound and you want a ribbon, go with the BBC mic of choice for decades: Coles 4038. Hard to go wrong with the Coles. Position it carefully, because like most all ribbons it has a pronounced proximity effect, and like most ribbons it won't take people blowing on it (use pop filters and position off center so their plosives don't do any damage to the mic).

Else if you want condensers, the AKGs are hard to beat. The C12 design is very old (but much loved in some circles), the C414s are classics that were used all over radio for decades. People still love them. Unless they hate them. You know how that goes.
 
Noiz2 said:
…
… Vinyl from iZotope[/URL] also can kind of get you there.
…
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iZotope Vinyl isn't downloadable anymore from iZotope website, it looks like they discontinued it. The installation file itself can be found on the net, but not the registration code that was free.
 
Joshua_G said:
iZotope Vinyl isn't downloadable anymore from iZotope website, it looks like they discontinued it. The installation file itself can be found on the net, but not the registration code that was free.
Click to expand...

If you click on the link I posted it will get you to the download. It is on their site.
 
iZotope's Vinyl registration code is partially hidden under the website error box, it can be copied and pasted though. Downloading works as well. I just installed the VST 2&3 versions on my current Win 10 PC, the authorization code was accepted and it works just like it used to on my old PC with Sound Forge Pro and Vegas Pro.
 
Noiz2 said:
... A free plugin Vinyl from iZotope also can kind of get you there. To really get that sound you also need to filter top and bottom out as per the academy curve, basically nothing over 10K and nothing under about 100Hz. Depending on the year it was possible that the on set recordings were done to optical recorder, magnetic tape didn't hit Hollywood till after WWII ended. There is a box, if you can find one, that mix stages had that simulates an optical track playback. It wasn't to create the FX but to get an idea of what the release print would sound like.
Click to expand...

Those are good notes. But the fun for me is to be using a 70 year old mic. I've pooh-poohed people waxing poetic about using film over digital cameras, but now I find myself guilty of the same thing. I just think it will be fun to try. There's just something fun about using old mechanical stuff instead of tweaking things on a screen.
 
S.Blanchardon said:
NEVER EVER ENGAGE PHANTOM POWER WITH A RIBBON MICROPHONE. You will destroy the aluminum ribbon element with DC voltage.
Click to expand...

Well, not quite Stéphane: most/all ribbons are unaffected by the phantom power itself, it is just the risk of momentarily shorting to the wrong pin that potentially causes a problem, either by faulty wiring or - and this is something best avoided anyway with phantom power - when wiring in a studio via a patch bay: most ribbon mic manufacturers cover this e.g. http://royerlabs.com/ribbon-mics-and-phantom-power/

Using a Cloudlifter or Fethead is useful if you have a lower gain/poor preamp: with a high-gain decent preamp (and with a high-ish input impedance suited to ribbon mics) you won't see a benefit (and, indeed, will be adding a little noise). With my SD Mixpre-3, for example, the self-noise when using a passive ribbon is less w/o a Cloudlifter or Fethead, as, indeed, you would expect from the specs.

Cheers,

Roland
 
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