Raylight from DVFilm.com

[kidgoldenarm]

I see that there's been a lot of discussion on this forum concerning editing HVX footage on the PC.

So far, the suggestions I've seen are Avid Xpress HD, and Canopus.

Now earlier I remember there was quite a lot of discussion concerning the use of Raylight fro DVFilm.

So I got some questions for any gurus around here:

Now the DVFilm site says that Raylight "converts" the MXF file on a P2 card into a Raylight AVI file.

-Does it use its own proprietary codec to do this?

-How much compression is there when this is done?

-Has anyone used this thing and seen the results? Any reviews here are very welcome!

Also the site claims that you can create "non-compressed HD edited files".

-Now how does it do that if it compresses it with a codec?

-Also does this conversion process of Raylight's, does it actually change the MXF file itself when it converts it, or does it create a re-encoded copy of the file? Also is this done on the P2 card itself, or do you have to copy the file over from the P2 onto your hard drive before Raylight can "convert" it.

I am like many people who don't have the $$ to make a leap to an Apple G5 right now, and have an existing PC with Vegas. If there's any possibility that I can edit HVX footage on my PC and still retain the quality of HD, I sure as heck want to know about and give it a try.

Please any reviews or feedback would be greatly appreciated. I'm about half way through my shooting script and will be starting production soon, so I wanted to know what my options are now, so that I can get on the waiting list for an HVX!

It seems like it's either this or shoot in Super 16 and have a digital telecine out. Which will be scary cuz I'll only have enought $$ to shoot at a 2:1 shooting ratio!

Also, Barry, Jarred, and all....this forum rocks!

 

[Barry_Green]

-Does it use its own proprietary codec to do this?

Yes and no. It involves two codecs, as I understand -- there's a low-rez proxy file that's built, and then there's also pointers back to the original data (which is decompressed much more slowly but at full quality).

-How much compression is there when this is done?

A whole buttload, and none. Depends on which mode you put raylight in. If you use the "fastest" mode, you'll see a very low-res (maybe 1/4-res?) file that should play back in realtime on just about any system. If you put it in high-quality mode you'll see the full quality the HVX can deliver, from the camera-original MXF files.

-Has anyone used this thing and seen the results? Any reviews here are very welcome!

Yes I'm a registered owner. I think it works pretty well, but it's not done yet. I've made Marcus aware of a couple of issues and he's been incredibly responsive in getting updates and fixes out. I expect that it will be fully capable very shortly.

Also the site claims that you can create "non-compressed HD edited files".

-Now how does it do that if it compresses it with a codec?

Well, I imagine that what he's referring to is that you can use it on "fastest" mode to cut your footage, and then you can put it on "high quality" mode so it references back to the original MXF DVCPRO-HD data and creates an uncompressed master from that. It would be uncompressed in that it would be the original data uncompressed, because the camera originals are always compressed. But there would be no further compression involved.

-Also does this conversion process of Raylight's, does it actually change the MXF file itself when it converts it, or does it create a re-encoded copy of the file? Also is this done on the P2 card itself, or do you have to copy the file over from the P2 onto your hard drive before Raylight can "convert" it.

It leaves the MXF file alone. And you have to copy it over to your hard disk. (well, I guess you *could* do it from the card, I've never tried...)

I am like many people who don't have the $$ to make a leap to an Apple G5 right now, and have an existing PC with Vegas. If there's any possibility that I can edit HVX footage on my PC and still retain the quality of HD, I sure as heck want to know about and give it a try.

You can do exactly that. However, just be aware that you'll not get anywhere near the level of performance that a G5 gives. I love Vegas to death and I sorely miss using it; I use it for little projects but for bigger stuff I have no choice, my PC is too slow and the Apple solution is by far the most powerful when dealing with DVCPRO-HD footage. I don't know what those Apple engineers have done, but it's just incredibly capable for DV100 footage... with RayLight I get maybe 11 or 12 frames per second playback speed on my $1600 laptop. With the $2,000 G5 I get full-screen full-frame-rate full-res playback of multiple streams of high-def, including transitions between them being processed at realtime speeds.

So the part I don't understand is -- if Apple can get this kind of performance out of their G5, and if they're switching to Intel processors because the Intel will give DOUBLE the performance of the PowerPC G5... then why the heck can't we get high speed out of the Intel platforms now? Before Raylight I was using the Avid codec, which gave me about 2.6 frames per second. Raylight is amazing in that it's five times faster than the Avid. But the Apple's about twenty times faster than Raylight, so how does that all work? I don't know... they must have some sort of integrated hardware chip, because it's not just DVCPRO-HD; it also works for HDV. I can play back HDV streams in real time on the Apple, whereas the PC is lucky to get three frames per second. Makes no sense.

Please any reviews or feedback would be greatly appreciated. I'm about half way through my shooting script and will be starting production soon, so I wanted to know what my options are now, so that I can get on the waiting list for an HVX!

Raylight can work. It's a relatively simple process to convert the files, and frankly the Apple has to go through a similar process so I don't even view the "raymaker" step as a drawback. But if you want Apple-like performance I'd say it would require a dual-processor dual-core system to deliver comparable performance to what this lowly G5 is doing.

Also, Barry, Jarred, and all....this forum rocks!

Glad you like it! Welcome, and we look forward to hearing more about your project as it progresses!

 

[Student]

Raylight is a great Value. For about $200 you can use your existing DV system. Except for one important step, How do you PRESENT your project. Before you could burn a DVD, millions could view your work. What is the best investment we can make right now to present our "movies"? Would it be a laptop connected to a LCD Projector or large screen? Is a laptop connected via it's DVI connection fast enough to show full frame full speed? . Or do we wait untill Blu-ray or HD DVD players and Burners are out.
Not knowing what your final presentation output is going to be is my only worry.
Any suggestions as to what would be a good step to make today?

 

[smelni]

I have gotten a little confused using raylight and premier - I do the convert and import the files and can edit fine - but then how would you export an HD master from premier?

 

[BigMike]

I have gotten a little confused using raylight and premier - I do the convert and import the files and can edit fine - but then how would you export an HD master from premier?

If it's like proxy editing, you would import the P2 files to your computer and then Raylight would create a "proxy" file. A low rez duplicate of the video in a format that Premiere can read. You edit your video using the proxy then when you render your project, the master P2 files are accessed instead of the proxy for the render.... I think this is the process Raylight is using.

One of the good things about proxy editing is it saves you disk space. You place the masters on one drive and then do all your editing with the smaller files. If you are sloppy with your files system, like I am, you can fill a hard drive very quickly during the editing process.

Yes, proxy editing is a great feature, unfortunately Premiere isn't including proxy editing this round. Other proxy options are available.

The Axio from Matrox has a proxy editing feature and it has the DVCPRO HD codec. It makes Premiere premiere in hi Def, but it's very expensive (for an average Joe like me) and the codec is burned into the hardware, not software based, so you can only utilize the codec on the machine the Axio card is installed in and it doesn't support After Effects. So if you're like me and use AE in every project you work on, render times will be long without the hardware acceleration.

Most likely the Raylight has the proxy feature in software form. Barry can tell you more, I'm sure.

It's sounding to me like an excellent fix, at least until Premiere supports the codec or I buy a new computer.

 

[BigMike]

So the part I don't understand is -- if Apple can get this kind of performance out of their G5, and if they're switching to Intel processors because the Intel will give DOUBLE the performance of the PowerPC G5... then why the heck can't we get high speed out of the Intel platforms now? Before Raylight I was using the Avid codec, which gave me about 2.6 frames per second. Raylight is amazing in that it's five times faster than the Avid. But the Apple's about twenty times faster than Raylight, so how does that all work? I don't know... they must have some sort of integrated hardware chip, because it's not just DVCPRO-HD; it also works for HDV. I can play back HDV streams in real time on the Apple, whereas the PC is lucky to get three frames per second. Makes no sense.

That's just it! There is no reason my dual Xeon with 4 Gigs of RAM can't edit HVX footage in Premiere except that Premiere couldn't get rights to the codec. If Premiere had the DVCPRO HD codec, I could edit multiple streams of DVCPRO HD video.

Apple has the license to the codecs from Panasonic. Adobe wasn't able to make a deal with them in time for this release. I have heard that Apple got an exclusive deal for the codec and PC solutions require the codecs to be included on hardware, like Axio and Edius (I'm not sure about Edius, Can you just buy the software without the card?). Avid is the only PC that I know for certain doesn't need a hardware source for the codecs.

Looks like 3rd party software will be the only way we can edit DVCPro HD on our PC workstations with Premiere for the time being. I like Premiere too much to drop it now, especially with the new enhancements from the Production Studio Pro package.

It's moot for me right now, anyway, because I have no idea where I am on Rush's list and when my camera will get here. I can afford to wait.

BTW: Main Concept www.mainconcept.com is developing a 3rd party codec that they will release later this year. Perhaps with we bug them enough they will be encouraged to release it sooner.

 

[smelni]

big mike - i dont think its true proxy editing - because the raylight file has pointers to the real file so you need to have the real files around anyway.

 

[BigMike]

big mike - i dont think its true proxy editing - because the raylight file has pointers to the real file so you need to have the real files around anyway.

You're probably right. I went to the web site and they make it sound like the user chooses the quality settings based on his system. How can that be a pixel per pixel match?

And what kind of file is the render? Quicktime? AVI? The Raylight file?

If it's exporting DVCPRO HD, my system still wouldn't be able to play it because I don't have the DVCPRO codec.

When my camera finally gets here, I'll probably buy it unless Main Concept is in Beta. Barry likes it and as far as I can tell, he's right most of the time.

 

[smelni]

its an avi with pointers to frames in the original file

 

[Barry_Green]

That's just it! There is no reason my dual Xeon with 4 Gigs of RAM can't edit HVX footage in Premiere except that Premiere couldn't get rights to the codec. If Premiere had the DVCPRO HD codec, I could edit multiple streams of DVCPRO HD video.

You'd think, but no. Avid freely distributes a DVCPRO-HD codec, and on your system I think you'd be lucky to get 12 frames per second.

You can find out though, just down the Avid Codecs LE pack and install it.

I have heard that Apple got an exclusive deal for the codec and PC solutions require the codecs to be included on hardware, like Axio and Edius (I'm not sure about Edius, Can you just buy the software without the card?).

No, Edius doesn't require any card. And it doesn't take any sort of exclusive deal either. Canopus developed their own DVCPRO-HD codec years ago, they developed it off the SMPTE documents and called it "Canopus HD." They didn't talk to Panasonic, didn't license anything, didn't pay 'em a dime for that as far as I know; it's their own codec that complies to the publicly-released SMPTE document that describes the codec performance.

Which is the same thing DVFilm did with RayLight; Marcus relied on the SMPTE documents and developed his own codec.

And MainConcept is rumored to be developing their own DVCPRO-HD codec as well (they've previously released their own DV and DVCPRO50 codecs).

If a one-man operation like Marcus at DVFilm can develop it, and a tiny niche player like Canopus can develop their own, and an independent development house like MainConcept can develop their own, and Avid and Apple developed their own, is there really any justification as to why Adobe couldn't do their own?

Even so, the PC hardware just doesn't seem anywhere near competitive with the Mac hardware as far as playing back DVCPRO-HD or HDV. We did the greenscreen sample shots at a guy's place where he used a dual-processor XEON 3.06ghz system. We installed the Avid codec. He ran the footage from his RAID. He got maybe 2 frames per second. My dual-core 2GHz Mac can play back the same footage in multiple streams in realtime including transitions between them, from the internal hard disk.

There's some magic going on.

Avid is the only PC that I know for certain doesn't need a hardware source for the codecs.

No PC "needs" hardware; in fact other than Axio I don't think there even is a hardware codec. Raylight is software only, Avid is software only, Canopus is software only (Edius Pro 3 with the DVCPRO-HD option pack, and the Canopus HD codec, are software only).

But I haven't seen anything on the PC that wouldn't benefit enormously from some hardware assist. The Canopus folks told me that they'd strongly recommend a dual-processor Xeon 3.6ghz system to run HD in realtime. I priced it out on their turnkey editing stations, it came to about $6,000. Again, I'm getting better performance out of a $2,000 Mac.

Yet the Mac is going to move to Intel processors.

Something doesn't add up here.

 

[Barry_Green]

You're probably right. I went to the web site and they make it sound like the user chooses the quality settings based on his system. How can that be a pixel per pixel match?

You choose the quality setting on the fly. You can select low-quality for quick responsiveness, then click a different setting and get pixel-for-pixel high-quality output.

And what kind of file is the render? Quicktime? AVI? The Raylight file?

Can be whatever you want it to be. Quicktimes, AVI's, WMV's, whatever. Just depends on what target codec you want to render to.

If it's exporting DVCPRO HD, my system still wouldn't be able to play it because I don't have the DVCPRO codec.

It can only export DVCPRO-HD if you have a DVCPRO-HD codec (such as the Avid free codec) installed. It could export DVCPRO-HD as a Raylight file though.

 

[Barry_Green]

I'll probably buy it unless Main Concept is in Beta. Barry likes it and as far as I can tell, he's right most of the time.

MainConcept may develop a codec (I don't think there's been an announcement yet, but lots of rumors to indicate that they're working on it).

But you'll still need a way to convert the MXF files into something that premiere can edit (presumably .AVI files). Raylight does that all in one for you.

As far as liking raylight -- I think it's an amazing tool and I'm blown away that one guy was able to undertake this task. And it lets you work in Vegas and Premiere. And it's five times faster than using the Avid codec! FIVE TIMES FASTER -- that Marcus is an amazing programmer.

But unless you have a super-ultra-hyper-fast system, I don't know that I would want to use it as my main editing station. I love Vegas to death, but there's no denying that the FCP system with its realtime HD is just a lot more workable than the chugging along of the PC platform. I am really, really puzzled as to why the PC isn't able to deliver Mac-caliber playback performance; it makes no sense at all. Yet it's observable evidence. What gives?

Who knows -- maybe MainConcept will figure out the secret sauce that Apple uses, and they'll allow five or six streams of realtime HD on a reasonable system (3ghz dual-core).

 

[soarprod]

Dont forget Cineform - they should have a ingest system in a couple of months.

 

[smelni]

Barry - what do you mean that raylight is 5 times faster?

and how do you export HD from premier once you edited using raylight?

 

[Barry_Green]

I mean that when I use the Avid codec, I get maybe 2 frames per second. If I play back the same file through Raylight I get around 11 frames per second. So it's about five times faster than the Avid DVCPRO-HD codec.

And you export whatever you want, just like always. You can export WMV9 or MPEG-4 or whatever. You can export a Raylight file too, although I haven't tried that.

 

[SalaTar]

"I am really, really puzzled as to why the PC isn't able to deliver Mac-caliber playback performance"

I would say that the PC world and Windows has to evolve faster than the Mac world for one.
This is not a Apple Slam folks, just that Apple focuses on less hardware.
I also have no issues with the Avid codec on a very moderate PC.

 

[AppliedVisual]

"I am really, really puzzled as to why the PC isn't able to deliver Mac-caliber playback performance"

The simple answer is that software developers on the PC who have implemented these codecs have done a poor job at optimizing them for performance. Raylight is in its infancy - give it some time to evolve. Take a look at Edius Broadcast too.. It has native MXF support and its performance with DVCPROHD is on par with FCP on the Mac and can handle multiple streams in real-time. Unfortunately Edius lacks many other creative editing features that many of us have come to expect from an NLE... So, try before you buy. It may work for you or it may not... But anyway, this question of performance is not an issue with the PC or with Windows, but rather the available editing software.

 

[Barry_Green]

I looked at Edius and wanted to try it. But I shied away because I couldn't put together a system that meets their recommended specs for less than about $4,000. The Mac was half that and far exceeds FCP's recommended specs.

Have you run Edius Broadcast on a $2,000 computer and seen multiple streams of realtime 1080 HD on it? From the internal drive? That would be most interesting indeed. I've seen it do the job, but usually on a dual-XEON-processor 3.6ghz RAID-based system that costs double to triple what this Mac did.

 

[Student]

I would like to thank Marcus at Raylight for helping me get up to speed with the HVX and my existing Editing setup. He was kind enough to answer a small problem I was having with the new Raylight codec, on a Saturday night even.
After purchasing the HVX, I'm sure, I am not the only one looking for a quality economical solution for working with the these new MXF HD files our new camera is producing. Sure , down the road there will be a new system, but for now it works.
Thanks again Marcus.