VaricamLT: Raw to prores

S

sean007davis

Active member
I'd like to get opinions from other Varicam LT users & Potential users.
I was having a conversation with a couple of the external recorder manufacturers at BSC, Trying to convince someone/anyone to implement a Varicam LT RAW to prores recording option on their recorder.
Atomos and convergent design both offer a RAW to Prores recording feature on their recorders for the Sony FS RAW. And since both recorders are supporting Varicam LT raw I think offering the same function for Varicam LT raw would be a great way to 4K prores right out of the LT (for clients that just want prores).
I actually love AVC-Intra and in many ways it's a better codec than prores, but for the sake of wider compatibility with older post work flows etc, Apple ProRes has it's Perks.
The answer I've been getting is We'll do varicam LT raw to prores if it'll sell recorders.
So my question is two fold (since I know that manufacturers do pay attention to this forum)
1-For current LT owners: would you consider a convergent or Atomos Recorder if it gave you the ability to do Raw to ProRes (essentially giving you 4k Prores right out of the camera).
2-People Who want to buy a Varicam LT or have considered it but are weary of proprietary recording media for 4k (Express P2 cards). If you could get 4k prores out of the Varicam LT to a recorder you may already own or without a heavy investment in P2 cards, would the decision to try the Varicam LT be an easier one?

Please sound off on this. I'm already invested in P2 and the addition of 2k ProRes in the latest firmware update have been a huge help. I think that being able to deliver 4k ProRes even via External recorder (7Q+ & Atomos Shogun) Makes life a lot easier for us owner operators and the camera an easier sell to potential new clients.
Cheers
 
Dear Sean,

Thank you for your post. We will monitor this thread, and we welcome everyone's suggestions.

I am surprised by the statement:

"We'll do varicam LT raw to prores if it'll sell recorders".

That sounds uncharacteristic of us.

These decisions are much more complicated than it appears on the surface.

For example:

Is there a significant benefit for the user?

Is there a codec in the camera that works equally well?

Can we fit the necessary code into our firmware?

And if not, what extraordinary steps do we need to take to fit it in?

Can it fit it into our development schedule?

Or, are we already committed to fulfilling other feature requests?

------------------------

Just stepping back for a minute:

We feel that t is amazing the features, functions, and wide camera support that we have been able to fit into our Odyssey7Q, Odyssey7Q+ and Apollo.

All of the Camera Types, Resolutions, Frame Rates, Raw, and Raw to ProRes, our Image Analysis Tools, etc. are significant for a small, low to moderate cost device.

Here is just one example:

Our Waveform Monitor/RGB Parade and Color Vectorscope work in all frame rates, up to 240 fps, in all resolutions, up to 4K, and provide professional, accurate displays.
And the Waveform Monitor is sync'ed to the image, as it needs to be to be useful.

A stand-along 4K Waveform Monitor costs between $8,000 and $33,000, and this is included in our $1,795 (US Dollar) device.

To answer your question more directly, at this time, we can't commit to adding Raw to ProRes for the Varicam LT.

Respectfully,



Dan Keaton
Convergent Design
 
Thanks Dan
to clarify "We'll do varicam LT raw to prores if it'll sell recorders". wasn't a direct quote i was paraphrasing, It seemed implied that if there is a demand for the feature there would be more probability of it being added, Which Is why I started this thread, hoping to justify there is a demand for this feature.
Cheers
 
I would happily consider this option if the RAW > ProRes codecs provide a better image than the internal options. Like a Varicam RAW > 4K 10 Bit ProRes 444 (something that is only in the Varicam 35) Otherwise, it's kind of a moot point and I wouldn't suggest it. We now have amazing 2K options for ProRes with the recent firmware release. I do realize a 4K ProRes would be happily welcomed but your situation might be unique and in that case, I would just suggest converting the internal recordings to your desired codec. I could see Panasonic coming out with a firmware update that releases a 4k ProRes 422 option for the Varicam LT since we already have a similar internal codec and leave the 4K 444 option to Varicam 35.

The whole reason why Convergent Design created the FS RAW option (and something I actually used quite a bit a few years ago) was starting with the FS700, the RAW to ProRes brought new life to the Sony cameras. The internal codec was somewhere around 8 bit / 25 mb/s on the FS700 at best which falls apart with minimal grading. For the FS7, the RAW wasn't implemented as well by Sony so a lot of users decided to keep internal recording. I sold my 7Q after doing extensive testing comparing the internal codecs. I do believe the same would apply in this situation, although if they find a way to convert RAW to another codec, doing a better job than Panasonic, I would consider it.

Nonetheless, whatever happens, the Varicam LT is a very capable camera right now. Probably the first time I have felt where all of my needs have been met and probably will be for 3+ years as technology grows. I hope we continue to see firmware developments with the Varicam line even after they release the next generation.
 
Chris Langer said:
Probably the first time I have felt where all of my needs have been met and probably will be for 3+ years as technology grows. I hope we continue to see firmware developments with the Varicam line even after they release the next generation.
Click to expand...

I don't know if I should feel misunderstood here.
I'm a varicam Early adopter, and honestly feel its thje best in class and price range . And I put my money where my mouth is last march way before any rebates of deals.
With that being said, my post was more about clients who want 4k in prores. I don't edit and sometimes end up having to transcode Avc-intra 422 to ProRes.

Chris I absolutely agree with you the AVC-ultra family of codecs are amazing. I actually find the intra-422 superior to 4k prores 422. I hope adobe gets its act together and sorts out the bugs in their AVC-ultra codec support.
Being one of the first people with the Varicam LT I love how far the camera has come with just the firmware updates.
My post is about a value addition to an already amazing camera.

And by the way Chris maybe Panasonic should use your line in their marketing
 
Not a misunderstanding at all, just don't know if the resources will be allotted to do the conversions on the 7Q and other recorders due to the amount of processing and engineering that would go into that. I remember Mitch coming on here and proclaiming how much effort it took to convert the Sony FS RAW into ProRes, so I am sure the same would apply to the Varicam LT.

I would bet you further down the line we will see a firmware update that gives us the 4K ProRes option via 422 / LT, hence why other companies might not be jumping at that option right now. Panasonic just showed us the expansive processing possibilities with 2K, which is very exciting in itself.

I don't know if you have considered testing out the Convergent Design's non-RAW option of 4K ProRes? It might give you similar quality to what is provided internally saving you the step of transcoding later. Also, based on their website, they do offer a Varicam LT RAW > UHD ProRes 10 Bit option... Not exactly true 4K but might suit your needs?
 
I've shot LT RAW and RAW in itself is a different Ball game, The post was by no means about me or personal application.
Also the Varicam LT only outputs 4K in it's RAW format, there is no way to get baseband 4k video from the SDI outputs. If there were a way to get linear/baseband 4k video out of the camera then this wouldn't be a conversation. Any 4k prores recorder would be to do it.
I'm shooting Codex Raw on a V35 or Varicam pure later this month and will be shooting LT raw to a 7Q+ or Atomos on my varicam LT as the second camera.
and incidentally for some reason Convergent jumped on this thread but ATomos also has Varicam LT Raw.

On another note it make me happy to see other as pleased and passionate about the Varicam LT as I am, albeit on the Varicam forum. I remember 6 or 7 months ago it was just Noel Evans and I on here singing about this cameras virtues
 
I agree with Chris that the internal codecs on the Varicam LT are very good, but it would be interesting if it was be possible to do Varicam RAW > 4K 10 Bit ProRes 444. I already have an O7Q (still have my FS700) so I wouldn't buy another one. But if CD made a new updated Odyssey with a brighter screen, a Varicam RAW > 4K 10 Bit ProRes 444 option would make it even more interesting to buy.

I'm also very happy with the camera, the only "major" issue (it's not horrible but it's annoying) is the reboot when changing resolution and/or codecs. I wish that they at least could make the reboot happen without the need to actually use the power switch. I also wish there where a few more assignable buttons and at least one volume control, and of course that the assignable buttons on the monitor where usable when in view mode.
 
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