Rates? 1 camera vs 2?

I agree re doing your own sound for sit down interviews in most situations.

Although if the stakes are high enough and the interviewee is that "important" then the dynamic changes, and it's somewhat expected to have dedicated roles to move through any issues. At that point the results are nearly unimportant anyway, as it becomes more about babysitting a fully grown person during the shoot.
Yeah, but, the thing is, if it's an out of town shoot and you have to rely on hiring an audio guy who you've never worked with before, there's an argument for using your own audio setup, doing it yourself, and having less chance of things going wrong than relying on someone you've never worked with before. In my interview demo reel right now, I did audio for about 80-90% of it, and the worst audio came from when I hired an audio professional who didn't notice a clicking sound from the interviewee's dried mouth. I don't always monitor audio as much when I've got a pro-audio guy, but that's a mistake I'm trying to avoid now.


Dude, I don't get you. You say on one shoot you throw a boom up over someones head and call it a day to save some coin, and then you say you pay $800 for an audio guy and anyone else paying less is getting inexperienced guys.
If you're paying say $400 for an audio guy with gear, you're probably getting some newb showing up with an ME66 and his Zoom H6n; this is the dude who may not even know to place the boom mic as close as possible to talent, and just hangs it up lazily, if he's even using a boom mic because maybe he thinks his Sennheiser G3 is the bee's knees for this interview. I have better audio gear and experience recording audio than most guys charging $400 with gear. For shoots that need audio I record audio myself on about 80% of my jobs, and I've been doing this for 10 years. So, the logic is, my client will get better results with me doing my own audio then they would get if we hired an inexperienced audio person and paid them $400 with their gear. Now, at $800, the audio pro is going to have a better mixer than myself, their mics probably won't be better than mine because mine are about as good as they get, and they'll probably be more skilled than me at audio. But again, what skills do sit down interviews really take. Not much, but I've still seen inexperienced people mess them up.

When I hire a pro audio guy for an interview, what exactly is different than if I did it myself? They put it through a Sound Devices mixer, which gives a slightly better pre-amp than a C300, but the difference is negligible in most cases, plus I could do the same if I ever felt the need to buy a pro mixer. They may be better skilled at laving someone up without rustling noises, but boom mics sound better than lavs for sit down interviews 95% of the time anyway. And as for booming, it's just placing a mic on a pole, getting it as close as possible, and aiming it right; so simple. So, I really don't feel like a pro audio guy contributes much to a sit down interview. I only hire them when a client insists on or specifically requests them, and always quote without an audio guy for those types of shoots.

And as to my point with Rob, I feel there can actually be more risks associated with hiring an audio guy than by going with your own tried and true methods.


I actually own more audio gear than a lot of my guys.
The audio guys I work with often own about $60k-$80k of audio gear, so you must own a lot of audio gear. I have around $10k of audio gear myself. I'd like to add some Lectros (or Zaxcom) and a Sound Devices Mixer at some point, but haven't had a pressing need thus far.


Also, no network is paying $800 for an audio guy and package(which is the bulk of our work). Commercials, yeah. High-end corporate, possibly.
So, what are the networks doing when they come to Atlanta and everyone is charging $750 and upwards? I've had the problem before where clients from out of state expect me to find an audio guy for $600 (plus if I'm hiring I want to upcharge for my time, so I'd then only have $500 to pay them), and I'm typically not able to find pro audio guys working at that low of rates, so I just come back to the client quoting $800 to $900 with mixed results.
 
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Thanks everyone for contributing, enlightening thread to say the least. Getting feedback on proper industry rates is always valuable.
 
If you're paying say $400 for an audio guy with gear, you're probably getting some newb showing up with an ME66 and his Zoom H6n; this is the dude who may not even know to place the boom mic as close as possible to talent, and just hangs it up lazily, if he's even using a boom mic because maybe he thinks his Sennheiser G3 is the bee's knees for this interview. I have better audio gear and experience recording audio than most guys charging $400 with gear. For shoots that need audio I record audio myself on about 80% of my jobs, and I've been doing this for 10 years. So, the logic is, my client will get better results with me doing my own audio then they would get if we hired an inexperienced audio person and paid them $400 with their gear. Now, at $800, the audio pro is going to have a better mixer than myself, their mics probably won't be better than mine because mine are about as good as they get, and they'll probably be more skilled than me at audio. But again, what skills do sit down interviews really take. Not much, but I've still seen inexperienced people mess them up.



The audio guys I work with often own about $60k-$80k of audio gear, so you must own a lot of audio gear. I have around $10k of audio gear myself. I'd like to add some Lectros (or Zaxcom) and a Sound Devices Mixer at some point, but haven't had a pressing need thus far.



So, what are the networks doing when they come to Atlanta and everyone is charging $750 and upwards? I've had the problem before where clients from out of state expect me to find an audio guy for $600 (plus if I'm hiring I want to upcharge for my time, so I'd then only have $500 to pay them), and I'm typically not able to find pro audio guys working at that low of rates, so I just come back to the client quoting $800 to $900 with mixed results.


Who said anything about hiring an audio guy with gear for $400? Not me.

I have an SD 302, 442, 664, 633, ~12 chs of Lectro wireless, two Sanken CS-3e "booms", each bag equipped with a complete BDS system, lots of lav's and stick mic's, to name the "flashy gear". I'm well over $30K just in wireless.

Most of the broadcast nets have a rate card and are also union with set labor rates. Some are really, especially for audio. Some are fine, especially when you factor in the almost guaranteed OT and penalties that will happen. I know guys that won't work for at least one of them, because the audio rate is so low and they want the world(I don't work for them either, but I have seen their rate card). One of my clients pays a set rate for one and two-man crews. On the two-man it's not stated $X for camera and $Y for audio. It's $Z for the total package(people and gear). So if you had to fork out $800 for audio, that's coming out of the whole pie and means your slice is gonna be smaller.
 
Locally (Houston, TX) I want to say the rate for a pro sound guy with gear is $600. Could be wrong. Why hire them rather than doing it yourself, even on a simple shoot? Yes, the gear, obviously, but they know how to troubleshoot various hums, buzzes, etc. better than I could (and furthermore while I'd be setting up cam/lighting etc.), and understand the subtler nuances/physics of sound like using this pattern mic vs this pattern mic because of the ceiling and aiming the null zone of the mic's polar pattern to get the best signal to noise ratio, possibly where to lay down/put up sound blankets to deaden the room just right, etc. etc. It's a black art.
 
Locally (Houston, TX) I want to say the rate for a pro sound guy with gear is $600. Could be wrong. Why hire them rather than doing it yourself, even on a simple shoot? Yes, the gear, obviously, but they know how to troubleshoot various hums, buzzes, etc. better than I could (and furthermore while I'd be setting up cam/lighting etc.), and understand the subtler nuances/physics of sound like using this pattern mic vs this pattern mic because of the ceiling and aiming the null zone of the mic's polar pattern to get the best signal to noise ratio, possibly where to lay down/put up sound blankets to deaden the room just right, etc. etc. It's a black art.

+1 on this set up utilizing all of the above. 1 camera shoot 1 DP/Operator (me) 2 audio guys with their own gear (fully decked out audio cart) including audio and video monitors. I had direct feeds SDI OUT from camera for their video monitoring and the audio crew plugged directly into audio jacks of camera utilizing their own mics. There was a marked difference both subtle and readily apparent in subsequent quality of audio. This was for a small/no budget short film. Less than five minutes. Rates were a favorable (for the client) $800 for 8 hr day for me and $800 for the audio guys. The audio crew could have doubled that rate without question... But they were willing to "work with" the client. I really appreciated the next level that the audio crew brought to the production value. Los Angeles.
 
I just read this and it cracked my 30+ years of experience up!

A lot of guys in LA are at this level and more. 8-10 channels of Lectros alone are $30k or more, plus multiple recorders, a full locker of multiple Schoeps, DPA and Sennheiser mics, throw in a few different Sound Devices mixer recorders, Comteks, IFBs, etc. and it all adds up. The one guy I know who is the king of Ambisonic recording for VR is easily in for $200k worth of audio toys plus another $80k on his ProTools rig for mixing it all. Crazy but a few of these guys who do big features make bank. Audio gear lasts a lot longer and stays more relevant than camera gear that us dummies invest in ;-)
 
I just read this and it cracked my 30+ years of experience up!

A lot of guys in LA are at this level and more. 8-10 channels of Lectros alone are $30k or more, plus multiple recorders, a full locker of multiple Schoeps, DPA and Sennheiser mics, throw in a few different Sound Devices mixer recorders, Comteks, IFBs, etc. and it all adds up. The one guy I know who is the king of Ambisonic recording for VR is easily in for $200k worth of audio toys plus another $80k on his ProTools rig for mixing it all. Crazy but a few of these guys who do big features make bank. Audio gear lasts a lot longer and stays more relevant than camera gear that us dummies invest in ;-)
 
I'm a nobody, with only a handful of years professional experience, yet even my small kit's original RRP value would be in the tens of thousands (although buying it secondhand helped save a lot!). So it is nothing to think of people out there with $50K+ audio kits, not at all unusual.
 
Honestly, it doesn't take a lot of effort to hit $10K-$15K+ for a very basic audio kit. No one thinks about things like cables, BDS, batteries, bags and the like that add up quickly and contribute to the cost. When I added a second boom a few years ago, it was over $2200(I believe) for the boom pole, mic, mount and windscreen.
 
Thanks a lot for all your great discussion, everyone. Hopfully this thread will help many.

Lately I've been noticing an increased loss of potential jobs. I'll meet, discuss and price a job and the potential client vanishes.
The video for cheap mentality seems to continue to grow as even more people get into this.

Not long ago I had an agency want me to drive 1.5hrs to the location, shoot the interviews, b-roll and post it all for $350. Sure, it was a simple job but still...
Recently another agency wanted me to shoot TV spots with 3 cameras, hair/makeup, talent, staging and I priced it with a discount from my rates. Never heard from him again.
Another company wanted to do an all day shoot (A cam and drone) and post it as a 2 minute video and $600 was too high.

I refuse to contribute to this field going deeper down the drain by doing dirt cheap work like I see being done around me. I won't pull the lever myself and flush it more.
Nearly all these companies exist for the sole reason to make as much money as they can. That is all they care about. More money. Paying others less means more money for self.
What do you guys think?
 
Thanks a lot for all your great discussion, everyone. Hopfully this thread will help many.

Lately I've been noticing an increased loss of potential jobs. I'll meet, discuss and price a job and the potential client vanishes.
The video for cheap mentality seems to continue to grow as even more people get into this.

Not long ago I had an agency want me to drive 1.5hrs to the location, shoot the interviews, b-roll and post it all for $350. Sure, it was a simple job but still...
Recently another agency wanted me to shoot TV spots with 3 cameras, hair/makeup, talent, staging and I priced it with a discount from my rates. Never heard from him again.
Another company wanted to do an all day shoot (A cam and drone) and post it as a 2 minute video and $600 was too high.

I refuse to contribute to this field going deeper down the drain by doing dirt cheap work like I see being done around me. I won't pull the lever myself and flush it more.
Nearly all these companies exist for the sole reason to make as much money as they can. That is all they care about. More money. Paying others less means more money for self.
What do you guys think?

I think you're absolutely right.
 
Although freelancing has been good to me over the years, I only have a few more months left.

I'm one of the very few who when hearing "it's a great time to be in the business" (because of the available technology) thinks it's the worst time, haha.

It's also not even because of the money; I just simply don't enjoy it anymore.
 
It seems to depend WHERE THE JOB COMES FROM. the situations you describe above sound a lot of stuff that comes my way. And those jobs generally come from either me answering ads on staffmeup.com or other sites, or folks finding me through a link/profile on sites like that (I have a whole bunch of profiles on different sites), probably by searching “videographer Houston”. So what have we learned? That 95% of the time those leads are crap for more experienced people. The “real” clients tend to come from word of mouth referrals from your network of colleagues or the hardcore grind of literally phoning up businesses and getting in/getting a meeting with the right person or making a personal connection some other way.
 
....
I refuse to contribute to this field going deeper down the drain by doing dirt cheap work like I see being done around me. I won't pull the lever myself and flush it more.
Nearly all these companies exist for the sole reason to make as much money as they can. That is all they care about. More money. Paying others less means more money for self.
What do you guys think?

I think the saying is, "When you pay peanuts, you get monkeys." At least I heard that once, but was confused because I'd never drawn any implicit relationship between peanuts and monkeys. Bananas and monkeys, yes... Elephants and peanuts, yes... but not really peanuts and monkeys... although I did ask a primate caretaker some years ago and yes, monkeys do indeed enjoy peanuts (they're not all that picky, really, which I suppose is a symptom of living in confinement, and why I make sure to stay out of prison........)

....where was I?

Oh yeah.... peanuts and monkeys. I've been getting requests to fill stupidly low budgets for years. In the early years, I took them (because, you know, I like peanuts too... and incidentally wasn't very good). Now, I don't... and like to think I'm better... but I'll make sure to refer them to some quasi-capable 20-something PA's I've worked with who could use the opportunity.

So I don't work for peanuts any more. I require at least a medium-rare 1/2lb burger, and ideally a really good cheesesteak.

I shouldn't post right before dinner. I doesn't help anyone.
 
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