Rates? 1 camera vs 2?

F

firehawk

Veteran
From time to time we talk about rates which I think is helpful for many of us. Today I'm focussing on being hired to shoot and deliver footage, no post.

I'm wondering what is common now on commercial and corporate rates.
From what I've seen around $250/hr is common for a single camera production.
So what I'm wondering is how do you guys charge for 1 camera vs 2 or even 3.

I've broken down the rates I use below:

For a 1 camera shoot, 1-2 crew (camera, lav mic, light kit, tripod)
$200/hr
$1400 full day
$800 half day

2 camera shoot, 2-4 crew
$300/hr
$2100 full day
$1200 half day

So basically I try to add $100/hr for each extra camera.

I charge extra for teleprompter, slider/dolly, gimbal, steadicam, boom mic, backdrops, extra mics, but may include those depending on the situation.

For a 15' jib with camera
$400/hr
$2000 full day
$1000 half day

Drone
$300/hr

I know rates should be determined by your cost of living and various factors.
And long term repeat clients and multi-day shoots can factor in.

I know there are a LOT of people doing this stuff cheap now but I am not trying to compete with the kid who will work for $100.
I'd just like to see what you guys have to say since you make a living doing this too.
Thanks for your time.
 
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firehawk said:
From time to time we talk about rates which I think is helpful for many of us. Today I'm focussing on being hired to shoot and deliver footage, no post.

I'm wondering what is common now on commercial and corporate rates.
From what I've seen around $250/hr is common for a single camera production.
So what I'm wondering is how do you guys charge for 1 camera vs 2 or even 3.

I've broken down the rates I use below:

For a 1 camera shoot (camera, lav mic, light kit, tripod)
$200/hr
$1400 full day
$800 half day

2 camera shoot
$300/hr
$2100 full day
$1200 half day

So basically I try to add $100/hr for each extra camera.

I charge extra for teleprompter, slider/dolly, gimbal, steadicam, boom mic, backdrops, extra mics, but may include those depending on the situation.

For a 15' jib with camera
$400/hr
$2000 full day
$1000 half day

Drone
$300/hr

I know rates should be determined by your cost of living and various factors.
And long term repeat clients and multi-day shoots can factor in.

I know there are a LOT of people doing this stuff cheap now but I am not trying to compete with the kid who will work for $100.
I'd just like to see what you guys have to say since you make a living doing this too.
Thanks for your time.
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If those rates are for 10-hour days, then yep, those rates are right there in the ballpark for experienced, professional shooters with well-maintained pro-quality gear.

In network tv & corporate you can often get a client to agree to "portal-to-portal". Meaning, the 10-hr day or 12-hr day includes the time from the "shop" to the location. You are on the clock from when you pull out of the driveway until you pull back into the driveway. Lunch is on the clock.
 
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5-10 years ago, I feel like 99% of companies were paying that and more, and now I feel like 1% is paying that in 2018.

I would be shocked to find many companies interested in those rates (especially with younger project managers/producers), but I also don't work as much as other people in production.

But based on what I see and hear, I feel like rates have drastically declined. And those who would pay the $2100 (or whatever it is) for the day, would expect everything on that list and more...maybe even editing!

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firehawk said:
I know there are a LOT of people doing this stuff cheap now but I am not trying to compete with the kid who will work for $100.
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I know this is a stretch, but it's truly not farfetched from what I have witnessed...talking full-blown RED kits with the works for just a few hundred more.

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It is definitely good to refresh this topic (although it is a sensitive one for many) every few years to hear everyone's thoughts.

I feel like it's such a crapshoot everywhere with everything. The one thing I learned in almost 10 years of all of this is that sometimes there is a lot of money to be made in the least expected field/job with the least expected people/company.
 
Generally speaking, around here, 1-man crew with one camera package: $1600-$2000(10 hr day). The second camera depends on what it is(i.e: dslr, cine or eng). It can range from just a couple of hundred for a dslr used as a lock-off to $600-$800 for real cameras. Fortunately, I do not bill by the hour, except in OT. Although I keep waiting for some clients to start asking for by-the-hour rates...


Yes, rates have dropped dramatically in a lot of places. A little over a decade ago when we made the leap from SD to HD, we received about an 80% bump in rates. With one client, I went from $1000/day 1-man with my Betacam in 2006 to $1800/day 1-man with my VariCam in 2007. Now, in some instances, I see rates for the same work at or even below the SD rates from the early 2000's.
 
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Firehawk, what city / state do you live in?

And to your question, personally I’d just charge a flat rate of $300-$500/day extra for the second camera - or something of that nature. Contingent on the camera of course. Rather than an hourly charge.
 
Most in the freelance world, far as I know, don't have an hourly rate, except maybe in the sense that their day/half day rate is based on a theoretical hourly rate. What I mean is, mentally they may have decided they're worth $150/hour or whatever, but they're always going to quote $1500/day, or perhaps $1000/half day (2/3rds for half day, sometimes 75%). Hourly just doesn't make sense in our line of work.

If you can command those rates, more power to you. I certainly can't. Much of that comes down to WHO your clients are. People willing to pay more (for work of commensurate quality) are out there, some of us are just not good at reaching them.
 
Josh Bass said:
Most in the freelance world, far as I know, don't have an hourly rate, except maybe in the sense that their day/half day rate is based on a theoretical hourly rate. What I mean is, mentally they may have decided they're worth $150/hour or whatever, but they're always going to quote $1500/day, or perhaps $1000/half day (2/3rds for half day, sometimes 75%). Hourly just doesn't make sense in our line of work.
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Even half day rates arguably don't make sense.

As can you even sanely book two half days back to back? Nope.
 
Well, the rate discussion completely depends upon who your clients are as Josh mentioned. Imho, only if you are working with established businesses that regularly hire and produce media in professional circles those types of rates would be accepted. As Norbro pointed out, that pool is rather small these days. I think the $100 a day DSLR kid era has passed and relatively smart people know you get what you pay for but the $1,000 a day mark equates to 'full features I-Phone' in many eyes...

If you are strictly speaking of for hire, hand the cards over type of work, that pool is even smaller but would seem to be higher level all around. I have always focused on the complete product to business and consumers.

In short, it varies so wildly today that I hardly know what charge anymore. But the same principle will always apply - you can sit at home with higher rates or you can be out working with something in between. I have been a freelancer all of my life and am very conscious of not wanting to be the low priced market killer but you are forced to price according to the job at hand. One size fits all rates will be too high for many these days. Post them high and negotiate if needed.

I often shoot with multiple cameras. My rates are based more on the type of project than number of cameras as long as the number of operators does not change. Often I view an extra camera as helping me as much as the client given I am usually a one man band.
 
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I only shoot with two or more cameras about 10-20% of the time. The numbers above would be appropriate with a high end camera like a RED or Arri. I don't charge by the hour or a half day, for me there are no such things as I live an hour north of the studio zone. So with traffic, for me to shoot a one hour interview is still going to end up taking me four to five hours in total with battling traffice, load in and load out. Hlaf days are ridiculous because as others have elaborated, nobody can sanely book two of those in one day because things happen and schedules slip and traffic increases later in the day. So there are full day rates. With an interview lighting setup, camera (C200, FS7 or C300 MKII) and perhaps a mic or two if there isn't a sound mixer, I am in the $1,000.00 to $1,200.00 range. Of course more, if the client wants a RED, Arri, F55 or Varicam, which few of mine do but a few times a year they do, it's going to be more in the $1,600.00 t0 $2,200.00 per day range since I have to sub-rent those cameras.

Other add-ons that are popular are Go Pros, Gimbal, Second camera, still camera and lenses, slider
 
Thank you all very much for taking your time to share.
I usually do the complete project from concept - to production - to post. So if I'm handling the entire project that can affect rates too.
But on this thread I'm mainly focussing on being hired to shoot and turn over footage:
1. shoot and turn over footage directly to company (end-user)
2. shoot and turn over footage to agency hiring you for their client (end-user)
How much if any do you discount for #2?

Yes, I saw things change around 10 years ago and that is why I'm listening to see what others have to say now.

When shooting local TV spots for example, they want to know how much$ of course, so during concept I usually can estimate how much time should be needed. If I think we need 2-4 hours I go by half day rate and book them for a certain window of time. If it looks like more like 5+ then it's full day and can go all the way to 8 or 10hrs if needed.

If a client calls and wants me to shoot an event or gather footage for 1 hr then I do hourly.
I realize that you can't do 2 half day jobs in a day so one booked half day eats up your chance for a full day. But I cannot charge full day rates for everything because many of my jobs only take a few hours and the clients won't pay it.

My day rates and half day rates are built on an hourly rate that I think I need, they just usually don't see it broken down hourly because that sounds high to them - what?! $300/hr!?

I should have given more details in my OP.
The one camera shoot would be 1-2 crew, basic light kit, lav mic, etc
$200/hr
$1400 full day
$800 half day

The two camera shoot would be 2-3 (or 4) crew, more lights, lav mic,
$300/hr
$2100 full day
$1200 half day

And the other gear mentioned in OP may be up-charged or included, depending.

The gear I have is along the line of Sony FS cameras, Panasonic ENG cams, A7 cameras, Astra lights, Dracast lights, Lowel Lights, remote slider, gimbal, steadicam, Phantom drones, Inspire Drone, remote jib, Sennheiser, AT, Rode, Sony Mics, Tascam recorders... No RED or Arri caliber cameras. So I'm not a big time production house.

My work is mainly in AR and OK
 
The Los Angeles market rates are probably lower than where you are simply because of competition. There are tens of thousands of DPs, production companies everywhere in Los Angeles and Southern California. That drives rates down, not so much kids with DSLRs and mirrorless. Clients in LA expect professional mostly but there is always someone willing to bring their Monstro VV and a load of grip and lighting for $500.00 per day because of lease payments. For a lot of owners, they care more about making that monthly lease payment that putting their rates where they should be and making a living. You'd be amazed at how many Arri and RED owners I see who live in squalor in a dump and drive a beater $1,000.00 car, seems crazy but I see it. In many small markets, you can hold pretty high rates just because there are only a couple of possible alternatives. Most of my clients would never hire someone because they had the lowest price but in many markets and segments, people will do this, foolishly. Video and film production, in some markets, is a commodity. Even in LA for a lot of EPK and BTS type coverage it is somewhat of a commodity.

Corporate is different. Corporate, I feel, is hired much more out of personal relationships and connections. I have to work much harder to land corporate gigs than entertainment projects but I am beginning to prefer corporate because there sometimes seems to be more earning potential because it's not so commoditized and the deadlines are usually unrealistic because corporate people procrastinate on hiring production services and then we have to rush and work lots of OT, hire additional crew and resources to hit their deadlines.
 
My second camera, bigger lights and extensive grip only come with my assistant as I refuse to work with them alone (except maybe a very static setup)

So me and one camera, one light, sticks = price A

me assistnt, two cameras, many lights, extensive grip = price B
 
puredrifting said:
The Los Angeles market rates are probably lower than where you are simply because of competition. There are tens of thousands of DPs, production companies everywhere in Los Angeles and Southern California. That drives rates down, not so much kids with DSLRs and mirrorless. Clients in LA expect professional mostly but there is always someone willing to bring their Monstro VV and a load of grip and lighting for $500.00 per day because of lease payments. For a lot of owners, they care more about making that monthly lease payment that putting their rates where they should be and making a living. You'd be amazed at how many Arri and RED owners I see who live in squalor in a dump and drive a beater $1,000.00 car, seems crazy but I see it. In many small markets, you can hold pretty high rates just because there are only a couple of possible alternatives. Most of my clients would never hire someone because they had the lowest price but in many markets and segments, people will do this, foolishly. Video and film production, in some markets, is a commodity. Even in LA for a lot of EPK and BTS type coverage it is somewhat of a commodity.

Corporate is different. Corporate, I feel, is hired much more out of personal relationships and connections. I have to work much harder to land corporate gigs than entertainment projects but I am beginning to prefer corporate because there sometimes seems to be more earning potential because it's not so commoditized and the deadlines are usually unrealistic because corporate people procrastinate on hiring production services and then we have to rush and work lots of OT, hire additional crew and resources to hit their deadlines.
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I've posted before that sometimes when we get calls here from "LA people" they think it's like that everywhere and are kind of taken aback by our rates(that actually allow us to pay bills AND eat) and surprised that we won't meet the west coast/LA rates. A friend of mine got one of "those" calls years ago and the producer/pm/whatever threw out the 'ole, "I can get my guy out here to do it for less". My friend said ok, ship his gear, put him on a plane, get him a hotel and rental car and tell me if you can still do it for less.
 
Yes! That is part of the problem. Many of the people I shoot for (I do mostly other work, shooting is very little of it) are from out of town/state/country and are taken aback by my rates (which are low for this market, quite low compared to what I see people posting here as a "reasonable rate"). When I quote for teleprompter I usually get no pushback. Go figure.

As for half days, that is up to the individual. There is certainly argument for not doing them at all. I know one guy who does 75% of a full day rate as his half day rate. I still usually do 2/3. AT least in town many folks still do it, even the top tier/busy ones. I would say unless you are so in demand that passing on a half day rate on the chance that same day might book a full is worth a potentially "dead" day (no work), consider doing half days. And some of you may well be that in demand. I am not. As a prompter I don't half days because. . .um. . .that's what other prompters do? I dunno. Life is weird and sometimes arbitrary.
 
Ahh the rates discussion. I'm still a bit torn on whether this is a futile industry or not. I spent many years suffering through the craigslist lower level rates, but this year I've gotten a number of better ones. Rates in line with what the more seasoned professionals on here will list.

So I do think that work is out there, there's just an endless supply of lower end waste of time stuff to sift through. Saying no to clients and chasing better clients has been *way* better than trying to convince lower end clients to pay decent rates. Some people just aren't going to value it, no matter what you do.

I'm also fine with half-day rates, provided they are decent. I mean, working a few hours is ultimately a day off compared to working 10-12, so getting decent money for those days is nice. When my rates were lower though, a half-day rate for those would've been worthless to even get out of bed.
 
It can be futile. The real money is in being an all-in-on operation (develop, shoot/production, post), as crew you won't make super money unless you get way up there. And much of the better money comes from good salesmanship/business sense. Knowing how to pursue clients properly, network, promote, etc. People who can do that side well will succeed over folks that can't. Not that talent doesn't count, of course it does, but there are some baaaaad people out there doing well 'cause I guess they have the marketing mojo.
 
I try to avoid "half-days" like the plague. Not necessarily because of less money(although that's part of it), but because they set a bad precedent and open the door for other bad things that don't benefit me. There are also those out there(clients) that think that a "half-day" means exactly half of the normal day rate. I actually lost a shoot for a good client towards the end of last year, because they wanted a half-day and they wouldn't meet my stipulations for doing it. It actually all worked out in the end, because I worked with the reporter a few days later and he said it was a total Cluster F@#$. If I'm going to be involved in a $h!t show, I want to at least be well compensated.
 
Day rates VS half day VS hourly.

This is coming from someone who bills projects end to end, including writing and concepts, etc. - not just rolling onto someone else’s production.

For me the issue is less about booking up another full day of work and more about QUALITY and ACCESS (to talent). Hourly rates or half days etc can encourage clients to cut corners and compromise the piece. Often times a full day really is needed and people will try and squeeze it into a half day, resulting in a half baked shoot OR you bending your rules and doing closer to 2/3 day shoot for a half day. And a huge part of my process is unpacking, packing, cleaning, prepping, driving, etc. which comes off set. So a heavily discounted half day rate becomes undesirable.

The other part is about access to talent. This isn’t just about half or full day rates but I’ve learned the last few years to not bill things hourly. You should have a minimum buy in for access to your style and talent - as well as your gear. Otherwise you get punished for working faster, make clients hyper focused on being nickel and dimed for hours, etc.

my preference is to set a minimum rate for a project and then ala carte additions, with everything billed by the day so as to discourage nickel and diming, and phase things as “up to”. IE one production day up to 10 hours (as required).

I realize this doesn’t work for All markets and people but one thing I would encourage is maintaining day rates for reasons other than the traditional reasons - there is no reason people should be able to access $20,000+ of camera gear including an operator for a 2 hour shoot for $500. There should be some basic level of buy in required, IMO, to get access to the talent and equipment, getting cheaper with additional hours. Maybe it’s better to rephrase half day full day in modern times to something like “Production Day Minimum: $1000 up to 4 hours. Additional hours @ $150/hour up to 10 hours; $250/hour over 10 hours in a single day”

There’s a million ways to slice it but I don’t think short shoots for cheap are best for anyone long term. It dilutes value, is unsustainable, and often leads to compromised quality and tension between what counts as on clock time VS what doesn’t and feeling pressure on nickel and diming. Nothing worse than bitter clients who are pissed they got billed $300 for the 45 minutes of you chatting and eating chips with them in between setups.

Another way to slice this could be separating out a flat rate for equipment ie $750 gear charge flat for the day + hours for your time, just a different way of phrasing your minimum.

Long story short: 1998 or 2018, a production day should cost something no matter how long or short; it’s about the product, not just the tangible literal hours required.

YMMV contingent on location, market dynamics, your specific role, etc.... of course.
 
filmguy123 said:
The other part is about access to talent. This isn’t just about half or full day rates but I’ve learned the last few years to not bill things hourly. You should have a minimum buy in for access to your style and talent - as well as your gear. Otherwise you get punished for working faster, make clients hyper focused on being nickel and dimed for hours, etc.
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This is an interesting comment and I agree entirely. I started thinking this way with shooting, while still going hourly with editing. But I'm realizing that it makes just as much sense with editing.

I would often get some limited budget in terms of hours, so the end result was me either working some hours for free or trying to cram a sub-par product into 8 hours or whatever. Neither me or the client would be happy. This is where I realized that they need to be at least willing to pay a decent minimum amount, even if it's a "simple edit".
 
In a scenario where you are a one stop shop, there is nothing worse than being in the weeds at the editing stage and spending way too much time sweating workarounds because you weren't able to get all of the needed shots. So, I definitely agree with the sentiments above that the pricing needs to take into account a kind of overall wisdom about what it takes to deliver a good product - access to talent, all of that. Some clients are equally wise, but others (whether they have the budget or not) may need some guidance and explanation so that they don't push for something that makes everyone unhappy in the end. Pricing should build that expectation of quality into the equation, as Filmguy123 has described.
 
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