Questions about the panasonic hmc40

S

Slade

Member
I had some questions about the camera. I was woundering if some one could help me decide if this is the camera for me and what i want to use it for. I in to skateboarding and love filming skateing and i also just enjoy filming everyday life. Like roadtrips and my kid growing up and such thing like that. The panasonic hmc40 is in my price range and i want a HD camera i thought about a dvx 100 but im still undecided. I would appreciate some help and sugestions. Thanks slade
 
i'm taking the skateboarding thing is during the day...if so, this machine will be awesome for that.

the dvx100...altho a good camera...is highly outdated...only does SD...and really...you want youe 21st century kid to be "taped" on 20 century technology?


anyways, good luck on the decision....
 
I have the HMC40 and Canon HF10 and love them both. In decent light both take superb video.

The HMC40 offers more manual control, but nevertheless the Canon HF-series has manual focus, exposure and audio.

The thing is, the HMC40 is significantly larger and heavier than the Canon! So I use the HF when portability is important; I use the HMC when I want fast access to large 'non-fiddly' control rings and user buttons and/or when I want to hang stuff of the camera (the one in the photo has a 0.7X adapter and hood, microphone and shock mount, bracket for a LED light, and a tripod plate).

One other point, likely important for skateboarding, is that both these cameras have poor wideangle (equivalent to 43mm on a 35mm camera) so you will likely be investing in an adapter (the 0.7X shown is $200). The new Sonys (AX2000 and CX550V), the new small Panasonic TM700, and even the HMC150 all have substantially wider lenses.

If a 'larger' camera is where you are heading, the AX2000 is worth comparing to the HMC40 - it is significantly larger, heavier and pricier though.

Edit: you might be interested in this link . HF10 used in Crank2 action scenes: http://www.collider.com/entertainment/news/article.asp/aid/7771/tcid/1

HMC_HF.jpg
 
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For skateboarding videos, having a camera that can do either 720 60p or 1080 60p is essential. That's why I think either the HMC40 or the TM700 should be considered. The Canon HF10 may have manual focusing but it's definitely not as good as the HMC40's.

The AX2000 is way too much money for a gimped camcorder.
 
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HMC40 does not do 1080p60. it does 1080i60.


However, not much else does 1080p60 in the price rqange either, AFAIK. The recently announced consumer cam from panasonic will, but is more like a TM300.

Easy access to manual controls is nice, and I find it easier to hold a bigger camera steady.

I considered a smaller camera for portability, but there were jsut a few features I couldn't live without on the bigger cameras. What you cannot live without may well be different.
 
It will be interesting to see how 1080p60@28Mbps images out of the TM700/HS700 look, compared to 720p60@21Mbps images out of the HMC40. I'm guessing the 720p60 out of the 40 might look a little better. 28Mbps is pretty heavy compression on full raster 1920x1080 frames at 60 per second. That's going to hurt detail (not to mention generating artifacts). Bits-per-pixel wise, that's about the same as compressing 720p60 at 14Mbps. Recording more pixels isn't necessarily going to yield more image detail, if it's considerably more compressed.
 
Another way to look at it is, at 28Mbps, the 1080p60 out of the 700s might be somewhat roughly comparable in terms of compression image quality, to HDV encoding of 1080p30 (aside from HDV recording images at "only" 1440x1080 - 3/4 the number of pixels in a full 1920x1080 image).
 
thanks everyone the links helped out alot and all the info about the camera did to. ive been woundering something the more i look in to this camera (hmc40) does it have a built in mic? or would i have to buy the extra mic and adaptor stuff. idk. ive noticed alto of the ones ive seen have the excta mics on them. and ya a wide angle lens is a big thing with filming skateboarding. but its also a personal prefrence thing some people like the fisheye lenses and some people dont.
 
the more i look in to this camera (hmc40) does it have a built in mic? or would i have to buy the extra mic and adaptor stuff. idk. ive noticed alto of the ones ive seen have the excta mics on them.
 
It has a built in stereo mic, you'll see it on top side of the camera just behind the lens hood. It doesn't really point forward, and (like any on-camera mic) it's not insulated from handling noise ... hence people tend to migrate to a separate mic. But its no worse than the mic on the various palmcorder models out there.
 
Robert M Wright said:
It will be interesting to see how 1080p60@28Mbps images out of the TM700/HS700 look, compared to 720p60@21Mbps images out of the HMC40. I'm guessing the 720p60 out of the 40 might look a little better. 28Mbps is pretty heavy compression on full raster 1920x1080 frames at 60 per second. That's going to hurt detail (not to mention generating artifacts). Bits-per-pixel wise, that's about the same as compressing 720p60 at 14Mbps. Recording more pixels isn't necessarily going to yield more image detail, if it's considerably more compressed.
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i wonder if it will be possible to use 28mbs for 720p?
 
Slade said:
the more i look in to this camera (hmc40) does it have a built in mic? or would i have to buy the extra mic and adaptor stuff. idk. ive noticed alto of the ones ive seen have the excta mics on them.
Click to expand...

As stated by others, the HMC40 does have a built-in stereo mic. However, one has to use care with this mic, because all handling noise gets transferred to the mic. I always suggest using headphones when shooting. If headphones won't work for you, ear-buds will do. The important thing is to listen to the sound being recorded.


I think a few have gone with the RODE Video Mic.

The microphone exhibits low noise and an unusually wide bandwidth for its size. It is ultra lightweight, yet rugged due to it's ABS construction. The VideoMic is powered by a standard 9V battery and offers a Low Battery LED status indicator and a switchable high pass filter to reduce unwanted low frequency rumble.

The VideoMic attaches to any Camcorder that has the standard camera-shoe fitting and utilizes a stereo mini jack for audio output.
  • Studio recording quality
  • Condenser microphone
  • 9V battery powered
  • Integrated shock mounting
  • Two step High-Pass Filter - Flat or 80Hz
  • Three step PAD - 0, -10, -20dB
  • Rugged reinforced ABS construction
  • Windshield included
  • 3.5mm mini-jack output
  • Integrated cold shoe mount, 1/4" and 3/8" thread
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I have not tried the mic, but it appears to get good reviews. The mic sells for around $150. While you don't have to purchase an external mic, using one will produce better audio.



Bob Diaz
 
I have the Rode and like it.

It is noticiably better than the in camera mikes on the HMC40 and the Sony FX7 (the latter of which had a really good internal mike as far as such things go).
 
Slade said:
the more i look in to this camera (hmc40) does it have a built in mic? or would i have to buy the extra mic and adaptor stuff. idk. ive noticed alto of the ones ive seen have the excta mics on them.
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First, the mic built into the camera isn't worth crap. You may record a couple of things with it and think, "doesn't sound bad" and then as you use it more, you will realize that it picks up all sorts of stuff, including stuff you don't want to hear, such as the rocker switch for the zoom. Then you will realize that it really isn't picking up stuff you want to capture unless it is really loud.

Bottom line, you just don't have any control with the built-in mic except how much gain it has.

What you do with respect to a mic depends upon what you plan on doing with the sound and how you expect to grab it. Ask yourself - Is the sound really important or am I just going to put music over all of the video? If I really need quality recordings of the sounds of what I am filming, can I just do it with an external directional mic on the camera or do I need a mic that I can extend for several feet?

Whether you need to get an external mic depends entirely upon the importance of the event sounds in your video. If it is important to capture the sounds of whatever you are shooting and capturing them with quality, you need to get an external mic. If you are doing interviews, you need an external mic. If you are just going to put music and voiceovers (done later) on your video in post, you don't need an external mic.

If, after deciding on an external mic, you decide you need a mic that will use a bit of cable distance from the mic, you will probably need an XLR adapter and an XLR mic. Otherwise, just get a mic like the Rode VideoMic, which uses an 1/8" plug (which is built into the HMC40). For a short cable run, the 1/8" plug cable is okay.

On the HMC40, I'm using the Panasonic XLR adapter and an Audio Technica AT875R mic. It sounds very clean, nice, with no extra noise and a good overall response. For the money, it is one of the best deals out there in XLR mics. The next step up in mic quality after that is about $1,000 more (yeah, there are a few in-between, but not worth the difference in sound).

You already received some good recommendations on an 1/8" mic. I didn't go that route namely because I've been there, done that, and they just start getting noisy over time as the plug gets worn and older. Plus the price of the 1/8" mics themselves were about the same as or more than the AT875R (although you still have to pay for the XLR adapter). I also like the easy to use gain controls with the XLR set up.
 
Camera Expert said:
For skateboarding videos, having a camera that can do either 720 60p or 1080 60p is essential. That's why I think either the HMC40 or the TM700 should be considered. The Canon HF10 may have manual focusing but it's definitely not as good as the HMC40's.

The AX2000 is way too much money for a gimped camcorder.
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Is it really true that a "P" format is better than "I" for skateboarding?

Looking at the latest/best cameras they all have comparable h.264 based codecs at around 25 mbit/sec. So that is basically your bit budget. Now if you spend those bit on a 60p encoding, you are going to 2X more frames than you can deliver via broadcast/bluray/internet, and your going to have half as much picture data in each frame.

I can think of lot's of circumstances where 60p makes sense as an acquisition format, and I can certainly agree that 1080p60 @ 50mbit/sec would be better than 1080i60 @ 25mbit/sec. But that isn't the case with any of these cameras (and certainly not with any camera that wants to use SD cards).

I own a AX2000, and I can assure you it's not "gimped". It has a much wider and faster lens, is more sensitive to light, more control surfaces, and has a way better audio system than any of the other camera's discussed in this thread. It's also more expensive. So I'm not saying it's the right tool for every job, but it's hardly gimped.

Personally, for an affordable Skateboarding camera, I'd be looking at the new Sony 550's when they come out. It's going to be affordable, have a very small size (which I imagine is an advance around skateboarders), 1080i60 @ 25 mbit/sec with AVCHD on SD Cards, decent manuals controls, decent light sensitivity, etc....
 
Is it really true that a "P" format is better than "I" for skateboarding?
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I always admit my bias against "I" (interlaced) video and I'm not the only one on the forum. Here's the reason for my bias against interlaced:

With 1080/60i, you are shooting a 1920h x 540v field image 60 times per second. Notice that with "I", the vertical resolution is only 1/2 the number of pixels, 1080. Two fields make up a frame, BUT as things move, the two fields do not always match.

Interlaced_1.png


In the image above, the person on the bike is moving; while the background fields align, the moving person and their bike do not.

This means that for dynamic (moving) images, the resolution is 1920h x 540v, or a total of 1,036,800 pixels. The resolution is very good in the horizontal direction, but really poor in the vertical direction.

With 720/60p, we get 1280h x 720v pixels recorded 60 times per second; that cones to 921,600 pixels. A bit less than the total for the 1080/60i mode, but the coverage has higher vertical resolution and is more uniform coverage than the 1080/60i mode.

With 7020/60p, all the lines are covered with every pass. Thus slow motion and freeze frames have every line. Both dynamic and static images have the full 1280 x 720 resolution.


Now it is possible to shoot in 1080/30p and get the full 1920 x 1080 resolution with every frame. This avoids the field problem, but the price is a reduced frame rate. For many things, weddings, news, travel, ... where there's not a whole lot of fast action, this works out well. Fast action sports does pose a problem.

A higher frame rate provides more temporal (time) resolution and makes the fast action movement clearer to see. More frames per second means more detailed movement per second.

30p is 1/2 the temporal resolution of 60p. Using 1080/60i increases the temporal resolution, but reduces the vertical resolution for dynamic images.


We are seeing cameras with 1080/60p, which is not a broadcast standard; however the camera does allow for the highest resolution at the highest frame rate. It would be wonderful if we saw the camera record at 50Mbps in the 1080/60p mode, but I believe it's 28Mbps.

I have to be careful with compression, because the size of the GOP (Group Of Pictures) has an impact on the effect of compression noise. I don't know the GOP size for the 1080/30p and 1080/60p modes. However, assuming that it's the same size for both modes, 1080/60p @ 28Mbps is roughly equal to 1080/30p @ 14 Mbps.



Bob Diaz
 
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