Question For Post Audio Pro

S

spankyward

Member
One of the tale tale givaways to low budget films is the audio. It sticks out like a soar thumb, screaming to the audience, Independent! Low budget! Here is my eternal question, that I hope to finally get an answer to. How on earth can we (indie lowbudgers) get the same audio quality (post, final product) as regulare studio pics. Is it a question of microphone quality? Or is it post tricks in sound editing software. I just bought the Adobe CS3 suite with Soundbooth. Do I have the post tools needed to get pro sounding audio? Can a pro sound person please let me know. I'm so very aware of how good audio can really make or break a good film. It's the first thing I notice when watching indies. Do I hear that sertain background hiss, or echo, you know? How on earth do pro films get rid of all that and only leave only the good, strong audio???? Please share the secret. I've had a very quiet room, great boom work, and still get that hiss. When trying to take it out in post, using Adobe tools, I get rid of the hiss, but then theirs a tin can effect. Many thank you's to anyone who can help.
 
spankyward said:
One of the tale tale givaways to low budget films is the audio. It sticks out like a soar thumb, screaming to the audience, Independent! Low budget! Here is my eternal question, that I hope to finally get an answer to. How on earth can we (indie lowbudgers) get the same audio quality (post, final product) as regulare studio pics. Is it a question of microphone quality? Or is it post tricks in sound editing software. I just bought the Adobe CS3 suite with Soundbooth. Do I have the post tools needed to get pro sounding audio? Can a pro sound person please let me know. I'm so very aware of how good audio can really make or break a good film. It's the first thing I notice when watching indies. Do I hear that sertain background hiss, or echo, you know? How on earth do pro films get rid of all that and only leave only the good, strong audio???? Please share the secret. I've had a very quiet room, great boom work, and still get that hiss. When trying to take it out in post, using Adobe tools, I get rid of the hiss, but then theirs a tin can effect. Many thank you's to anyone who can help.
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First thing is to remember that EVERYTHING you hear in a feature is placed in the track on purpose - nothing is left to chance. If you hear a dog barking in the distance - it was added as an effect in post. If your hea the talent's keys jangle as he puts them in the car ignition, that's a Foley artist at work. Even the sound of silence of the room that underlays the gaps in the speech is created in post from the room tone recorded on location. The hiss you're not hearing in the theatrical feature hasn't been removed with some magic bullet in post (though equalization in mastering does play a part) - likely it was never there in the first place. It's no accident that the price tag on SD and Sonosax mixers, SD, Cantar, and Deva recorders is so stratospheric. Preamps make a difference. So does quality mics. And most importantly, so does a HUMAN MIXER on set that knows where a mic needs to be and how to setup the gain staging of all the elements in the chain so hiss and room slap doesn't get recorded in the first place. Any gear will introduce artifacts like that if operated at other than optimum levels - the soundie's knowledge of how to tie everything together so all the pieces of the chain ARE operating at optimum is a crucial factor. Add to that the fact that the sound mixer's job is to give sound his total focus and attention during the shoot - he listens! - and fixes it on the spot by calling for another take after identifying the cause of the problem if its not perfect.
 
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It all starts with pre-production, Spankyward. Involving the production sound mixer early in the pre-production phase will help identify and avoid a wide variety of problems and issues before you even select your gear. Bringing him or her into the location selection proccess will help you avoid location-specific audio problems (eg. shooting a period drama next to a freeway on-ramp), and will let them know what to expect. Go over the script with them, and they will be able to identify shots that will require more specialized gear. They will also help you with the logistics of synch-playback for any big song-and-dance numbers. While you're at it, get the Supervising Sound Editor involved early on.

On the topic of gear: avoid buying all your gear outright. Its murder on the cashflow. Most experienced mixers have their own equipment package, although you'll still need to rent additional gear.

High-quality wireless lav's will give you a very close and clean dialogue sound, but they can be unreliable and rarely give you much in the way of production foley. They're great to use, but should never be the only mic on the scene.

Boom mics, on the other hand, are much more dependable but have difficulty covering very wide shots. Different situations will call for different boom mics, so you'll likely need at least two different types of mics. In broad-strokes: long-shotgun (eg. Sennheser MKH816) for wide/noisey exteriors, short-shotgun (eg. MKH416) for closer/quieter exteriors and some interiors, hypercardioid (eg. MKH50) for most interiors. All mics will need adequate shock-mounting, and any exterior mics will need wind-protection appropriate to the location.

Some shots may require more specialized mics (PZM's, dynamics, "plant" mics, wired lav's), which the production mixer should be able to anticipate. Don't be surprised if the mixer brings a particular mic but doesn't actually use it.

The mics are all fed into a mixer (the device, not the person), and from there they go to the recorder. Although most modern video cameras will record single-system audio, the real irony is that many newer HD cameras will give you a worse recording than their older DV counterparts due to the proliferation of MPEG compression. For that and other reasons, record your primary sound double-system to a portable recorder. There are plenty of these on the market, and most will even give you the luxury of 24-bit audio. Time-code capable cameras and recorders will allow you to jam-synch everything to streamline post-production, but a standard clap- or bloop-slate will get the job done. A double-system recorder will also allow you to roll wild-lines and room-tone without recording picture. All the audio assets (circle-takes, wild-takes, out-takes, room-tone, etc.) will also be right at the picture and sound editors' fingertips.

On a side note, that hiss you described is likely coming from a combination of a lower-quality microphone and the poor mic preamplifiers found on most cameras. Its better to avoid noisey gear than to try to fix in in post.

Additional gear can be used to speed up the production proccess (wireless camera hops, Comtek feeds of the production sound, etc.), and expendables like hush-heels are handy to have in case of unforseen issues.

Ideally, you should hire an experienced Production Mixer/Recordist, an experienced Boom Opperator, and an inexperienced yet keen and motivated Utility Sound Person. The Utility Sound Person will really speed up the sound department since they'll be able to act as cable-puller, audio grip, go'fer, and even secondary boom-opp'. Its also one of the best ways to learn the craft.

During production, try to indulge your sound folk when they request a re-take, wild-lines, or to "hold for traffic/plane". A good Production Mixer will provide you with detailed production sound notes that will prove invaluable to your picture and sound editors. One of your goals should be to avoid ADR as much as possible: always remember that the money that you spend "fixing it in post" is money that you could be spending "making it awesome in post."

Once the film is shot, you will be left with the decision of whether you use the camera audio or synch up the double-system audio for the circle-takes. I stronly reccomend going with the double-system audio, since that 24-bit sound will come in handy during the mix.

Audio post-production is where the bulk of that "big-budget sound" happens. Start by screening the rough cut for your Supervising Sound Editor so that they can assess the condition of the production tracks. While its true that many Hollywood films are 80%-90% ADR, that's not always the case. ADR is an expensive proposition, since you'll be paying for actors, technicians, editors and the recording space itself. If you spend a modest amount of money to record great production sound, you'll save a fortune on ADR. You may still need a day or two to adjust the performance on a few lines or fix a line here and there, as well as to record a "clean" version of any salty language.

Audio post-production traditionally begins once the picture is "locked." Although this is no longer the case on some projects, bear in mind that once the sound editors start cutting, even a seemingly insignificant change to the picture edit can cost you a fair bit of time and money in audio conforms. To keep costs down, don't start cutting the audio until everyone has signed off on the picture edit.

Audio post-production is broken down into 5 general areas, all of which can proceed in parrallel. It is very important that the various audio sessions all be mutually compatible, which is where ProTools comes in handy. Say what you will about Digidesigns products, but the overwhelming majority of audio post folk work on a Protools platform.

Dialogue:
The production sound is smoothed over, sweetenned and generally tidied up. A good dialogue editor can stitch together clean takes from multiple compromised takes, and can further keep you out of the ADR studio. They'll need to have the production tracks transferred out of the picture editing workstation, usually via OMF. These editors will take your good production sound and make it great.

ADR:
The actors are brough into a specialized recording studio, where they re-perform their lines in synch' with the picture. In addition to the actor(s) and the ADR mixer, the director will also need to be on-hand to direct the performance. You may also need an ADR editor to further tighten the synch on the re-recorded lines. Ideally, the ADR should blend seamlessly with the production sound (assuming the pruduction sound wasn't scrapped altogether), and a skilled mixer can give you that sort of transparency.

Sound Effects:
They will add most of the "hard" sound effects, as well as the background atmospheres that give your film its texture and sense of immediacy. Since the primary concern for the production mixer is dialogue, many of the other sounds in the film will need to be cut in. Most of the effects will be drawn from the editor's extensive sound library, although you may have to send out a recording team to roll new effects as needed. Here's where you can take some of the money that you saved on ADR and spend it instead on building up a unique sound pallette for your film.

Foley:
Foley is rather like ADR, in that the sound effects are re-performed in a specialized studio in-synch with the picture. All the footsteps, cloth moves, and many of the other hard effects can be covered here. Like ADR, good foley will blend transparently with the production sound, adding weight and texture to the track. Full foley coverage on a feature film can take 7-12 days.

Music:
This can include cutting in licensed tracks as well as composing and recording an original score. Although there's no shortage of up-and-coming musicians eager to get some on-screen credits, inexperienced film composers will often compose the score without due consideration for what else is going on in the track. Many times I've seen original music dropped during a mix because it stomps all over important dialogue.

Once all the disparate elements are cut together, its time to mix the film. Dubbing stages and re-recording mixers don't come cheap, but you don't want to throw away all the work so far by mixing in a space that hasn't been carefully built for that purpose. That goes double for the mixing team.

To save time in the mixing theater, be sure that all the tracks are fully edited, premixed, and organized in an accessable manner. Few things waste mixing time as thoroughly as cutting in a door slam while the meter's running. If everyone's done their job up to this point, the mixing experience will be an intense and exciting time where you'll be able to delight as your film takes its final shape. If post-production was rushed and haphazard, the mix will be unbearably stressful and fraught with interpersonal tension.
 
That's what I thought, but I was hoping. Thanks for the confirmation. Just goes to show how important good crew is. Thanks for the comments.
 
A further note on ADR

While you could shirk the production sound and cover everything in the ADR stage, here's an alternate budgetary break-down: record good production sound, spend a single day in the ADR stage to tigthen up some readings, throw a wrap party that will be the stuff of legends, and pocket whatever money is left.

Good production sound is expensive to achieve. However, good ADR will cost you far more money and time.

Some times you can either do a thing right, or do it over at twice the cost.
 
Jockomo said:
It is very common to bring the actors in after a picture is edited and get the to re-record their lines in a sound booth. Yes all of the lines.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dubbing_(filmmaking)#Automated_dialogue_replacement_.2F_post-synch
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Actually with the exception of some foreign films where the main market will be dubed versions it is NOT very common to ADR all the lines in a film. Big budget films spend a lot of money to avoid ADR.

The domestic exceptions are animation, though you can't really call that ADR and some SiFi where the sound of the "set" makes some dialog unusable.
It is VERY expensive to do good ADR. It is a very poor choice for a film on a limited budget.

So as folks have pretty clearly stated that "Hollywood" sound starts before you start shooting and includes having your post folks onboard before you finish the cut. Ideally your designer/ supervisor/ editor or whatever your main post sound person is going to be called is on board before you start shooting. It doesn't nec. have to cost you a ton of money. If you have a good project and have a real interest in getting a great sounding film, that can go a long way to your getting some deals on post. If you wait till you have finished editing and post your Craig's List ad asking for audio post for free with a two week schedule till your first "must deliver" date to a festival, nobody who is any good is likely to respond. Think about it why would you work on a project where your contribution was blown off as unimportant till it was too late to do a good job and now they want you to do it for free for "your reel". Your not going to put work that's not your best on your reel - and sound people rarely have "reels" anyway unless they do a lot of ad's (ad folks have a fetish for reels).
 
Sounds Good,

Sounds Good,

Thanks for all the info. I was hoping to hear some trick of the trade to do everything cheep, but I guess there is just no getting around having a good audio crew, something out of my reach right now. I guess I'll have to make due with what I got. Straight into the camera, maybe a DAT recorder if I'm lucky, oh how I long for the day when I'll actually have a budget. I dream. Thanks again for all the comments. check out some of my video's, let me know what you think if you like. Did the best I could with what I had. Thanks again.
www.myspace.com/spankyward or type in spanky ward in youtube.com see ya.
 
You've gotten some really good advice in this thread, but understand it's just the tip of the iceberg that's available here in dvxuser. There's a million tricks .. no, I hate that word . . . lets say techniques . . . to the art of sound and a great many of them can be found in this forum's archives. Take the time to peruse some of the older threads here and you'll soon feel like you're getting a master's course in how the real world does it.

The tips and explanations here have made a tremendous difference and saved me a LOT of hard cash as I've built my kit. The only really stupid question is the one unasked - AFTER you've done a forum search. Best wishes and welcome. :beer:
 
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spankyward said:
maybe a DAT recorder if I'm lucky
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DAT wouldn't be my first choice, nowadays, unless you're given one for free. There are plenty of excellent yet inexpensive solid-state recorders on the market, many of which can record audio that will shame even the very high-end portable DAT recorders. Additionally, CF cards are far easier to work with in post-production than DAT tapes: editors need not have a DAT player to access all the production rolls.
 
in regards to post vs. on set:

believe it or not, lavs make a HUGE difference in live action pieces. If hidden and placed well, you can gain so much from your actors voices, but this doesn't rule out having a decent boom mic.

long story short..
Everything makes a difference.

now..about using DAT... It's pretty much time to give up DAT tapes. Its just like a cassette tape...dead.
I've recently started using the Zoom H4 as an affordable external audio recorder. In fact, today I used the H4 and an AKG shotgun mic to record folly on set of a small production. I grabbed everything I needed within an hr and was more then happy with the out come. (I'll post the video soon enough)
The H4 is reasonably priced at $300-$400 new, but u can find them from $200-$250 used.
It saves onto an SD card and you can run 48KHZ / 24bit recording.
It also has phantom power, so shotgun and boom mics wont have a problem being used in the 2 XLR inputs. Even the stereo mic on the recorder itself isn't so bad for quick notes or short ambient pieces, but it does lack.

anyway, check it out. It's an affordable recorder with great results.
http://www.samsontech.com/products/productpage.cfm?prodID=1901
 
If there was an easy or cheap way to get good sound, Hollywood would be on it like white on rice. Good audio is not trivial. Really good audio draws absolutely no attention to itself. Getting that takes a lot of good gear, experience, cooperation with other departments, planning and luck.

Regards,

Ty Ford
 
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