Question about on location music

C

chumpi

New member
Hey guys, I'm new here, I just have a question about sound and shooting on location.

So I have a short film I wrote, I have everything planned out. There's one short 10-second scene that takes place in a bar or pub. I plan on just going in there, my camera is a canon powershot, so its small, it's a nice camera, but its small. It will look like I'm just taking pictures for facebook or something. I'm just concerned about the legality of it. Like I know there is going to be music playing in the bar. That music will end up being in the film. I obviously don't have the funds to license that music, so is that a problem?

I'm also concerned about showing the people in the bar. Is that illegal without them signing something. I'm going to keep the shots in close and there will be only one transition with camera movement but I'll hopefully move so fast that nothing will be distinguishible.

I'm planning to submit this to my college's student film festival and if you win that they pay the submission fees for other film festivals. So I just want to make sure everything is legal.
 
In a couple of words, nothing you want to do is legal without permission. Property, model release, band, and the music itself are all issues. If you were doing a documentary and there was no profit involved, maybe....maybe. Normally, you would get the permission of the owner, and then post a sign at the door stating that if you enter, you may be filmed and thereby giving you a release. Then, release the band, and make sure they aren't playing a cover of someone else's music. The owner may want proof of liability insurance as well. You probably didn't want to hear any of that.

Does your film festival have requirements in this regard; I'd be surprised if they didn't.

Grant
 
As Grant said, this is wholly illegal. I'd add unethical. You must have permission of all involved (property and property owner included) for them to be in your short film. You must also license any music or other artistic works you wish to use that you do not own.

Find the location you want and get in touch with the owner. Explain that you're working on a no-budget short film and would love to use his/her establishment as a location. See if you can get access to the place during off-hours (either early or late). Once you have the location secured:

- Get your cast together, and organize your shooting script.
- Work with the pub owner on drinks: tea, apple juice, orange juice, soft drinks. These can all substitute for liquor and mixed drinks. Do NOT serve alcohol during production.
- Post signs around campus looking for extras: hey, free soft drinks, tea, and juice!
- Shoot your scene with dialog only, and keep any extas/background players quiet.
- Add bar "walla" and royalty-free music in post, mixed to sound like the ambiance of a bar.
 
Ken Hull said:
Alex, is "walla" a term meaning indistinct talking?
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Yes. "Walla" is background conversation for restaurants, bars, school hallways... anywhere that you see lots of folks moving in the background. It's often recorded in a studio with a small crowd of people who simply say "walla, walla, walla, walla, walla" at varying rates, intensities, and inflections. (Others use the ol' "watermelon, buffalo" or similar nonsense.) The idea is to have a background track of chatter that will not conflict with the dialog, but that will have enough variance to sound believable as background conversation. That's why we add it in post, rather than trying to have extras perform it live during production.
 
The "how to do it' has been said already. But I just wanted to clarify that it's really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really important to do so. Ask permission, talk with owners, sign papers that their property can be filmed, sign papers for the people

I know, you just want to film and just do it "fast fast" and you actually want your movie to be finished yesterday and win that 500.000.000 dollar money... But...you need to have patience...

You will be very thankfull you have listened...
 
If you are shooting on private property, you need to get permission of people, if you are shooting in public, like on a sidewalk, you don't...at least that's what I've been told, but then you need a permit if you are going to shoot in a public place.

As far as the music goes. Don't have music playing while you are shooting. Add that later, and get the royalty free stuff.
 
Thanks for the info guys. I don't know if it's worth it to go through all that for such a short scene. Do you guys think if I did it I would get called out on it?
 
chumpi said:
Do you guys think if I did it I would get called out on it?
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By "if you did it," are you referring to your original plan of sneaking around to get the scene without permission? If that's your question, you're asking us to condone unethical and/or illegal activity, and that's something that we won't do. Further, there's no way we can guarantee that you won't get caught, get sued, etc. Going about this the right way is going to put you ahead in the game, and it's the only advice you're going to get.

Last, if you're not willing to go through the necessary steps to get the scene this time, how are you going to survive film making long term? This is par for the course.
 
chumpi said:
Thanks for the info guys. I don't know if it's worth it to go through all that for such a short scene. Do you guys think if I did it I would get called out on it?
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Well the bottom line is you CAN'T DO THAT. It's illegal and disrespectful to the people that own the place and the folks in there. Best case scenario you're a disrespectful person doing something without permission which is irresponsible and stupid especially if YOU want to be respected for your work. Worst case scenario, you get sued and never get to make another film because you were an idiot.

It's not that hard to walk into the bar, ask the owners if it's ok to shoot a small video clip and get them to sign consent. It's not that hard to add ambiance, royalty free music and crowd walla when you edit the video. Why not just do it the right way? You could edit a clip that size in like 5 minutes max.
 
A friend of mine wanted to shoot a scene in a bar or restaurant. So he frequented a local bar, and got to know the people there. Then he told them he wanted to film in their bar (in the morning, before it opened), and that he would be happy to help them put together a web-based video commercial if they wanted. They said OK to his filming in the bar in the morning. They didn't know if they wanted a commercial, but thanks for the offer.
-- Ken
 
Thanks guys. I'm going to go about it differently. I'm probably going to throw a small party at my house just for the scene. Or if anyone I know throws one I'll ask if I could shoot a short clip there. The sound ideas you guys gave me are great as well. To get any background music out ill use the sound editing tips.
Thanks again guys. If you have any other ideas of how to film this scene I'd like to hear them
 
I think that party Idea isn't too bad. Very shallow DOF and a few Christmas lights in the background, maybe a mirror globe somewhere and a few lights with blue and amber gels will do the trick.

Though I'm totally in line with getting permission and releases and all, isn't it kind of strange how we looking at this?
I mean, with cities and shopping malls that are packed with surveillance cams, probably that bar also would have a bunch of them, and people taking pics and clips with phones about everywhere and posting them around on the interwebs - suddenly we all agree, that it's "totally illegal" to do that for a student film - which it probably is (depending on your country your mileage may vary).
The same guy walking into that bar, taking that shot with the same camera and posting it on Youtube and Facebook, nobody would care.

Don't want to derail that tread, I just think it's kind of strange how we deal with those things today.

Frank
 
I'd also suggest that it's risky for another reason too. How about if the couples in the background are 'not' real couples but having a 'secret' drink that their real partners don't know about. What if they're supposed to be not drinking, and what if they should really be somewhere else? These people could view being captured for ever in your movie a really bad idea. How about if somebody in shot is clearly under the legal age?

It is a risk.

Only you can consider if it's worth it. We have to be responsible and tell you no! However, many of us have done this kind of thing before we knew better. Indeed, I fell foul of one of the risk areas above and promised the people I would not include their picture - but they weren't happy. You need to establish your own ground rules.

However - the solutions above have one thing that's important hidden in them. The chances of hearing your characters words in a busy pub will be low. On top, it will be difficult to edit, as the background music will give away the edits. Much better to find a friendly location, and just ask if you can shoot just before or after their usual hours, with friends who will pretend to talk, and give you a quiet room - then dub on the pub noises and music afterwards. Much better result!
 
Postmaster said:
...Though I'm totally in line with getting permission and releases and all, isn't it kind of strange how we looking at this?
I mean, with cities and shopping malls that are packed with surveillance cams, probably that bar also would have a bunch of them, and people taking pics and clips with phones about everywhere and posting them around on the interwebs - suddenly we all agree, that it's "totally illegal" to do that for a student film..k
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Surveillance cams aren't filming for the purpose of public publication of the images of the people photographed.. The fact the OP is making a student film has nothing to do with it - the cautions raised apply to ANY film that made for other than private personal use. Images captured for the purpose of public exhibition, which is the whole reason behind making a film, are in a totally different category than the images captured on a store's security camera. As for folks grabbing shots in public and posting them on the weeb, there have been many lawsuits where images shot in public were used for commercial purposes and the people who were photographed without permission have won big time - it's just a matter of time before it happens to someone posting videos on YouTube, if it hasn't already. Fine Arts photographers who specialize in 'street photography' are getting sued a fair amount these days for displaying images they've shot and/or offering them for sale in art galleries without first obtaining releases from any identifiable persons in the shot. Even if you're in the right and you shot your images in a public place where there's no expectation of privacy, do YOU have the $100,000 cash money it's going to cost to defend a nuisance suit from someone? And a bar full of people is NOT a public place so what are the odds of winning that one do you think?
 
My remark was more a philosophical - or if you want sociological - view,
on our perception on being pictured, recorded and sometimes worldwide distributed, by different imaging devices,
not a legal question.

Frank
 
Yeah the philosophical viewpoint doesn't hold water for me. Those other pictures you speak of are for personal use whether personal use for the owner or the facebookers.
 
Bluebird said:
Yeah the philosophical viewpoint doesn't hold water for me. Those other pictures you speak of are for personal use whether personal use for the owner or the facebookers.
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Publishing on Facebook isn't personal use, it is publication for public viewing just like printing in a magazine, incorporating it in a billboard advertisement, or hanging for sale in a gallery. The fact it's your page doesn't make it personal - you have published the image for public consumption. Posting on your Facebook page may be a non-commercial use but that doesn't make it personal either and whether something is commercial or non-commercial use doesn't matter when it comes to the rights of the people in the picture to control all uses of their likenesses.
 
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Actually the "philosophical" questions I think are quite valid.

The only OK situation where you can shoot people with out permission is related to "news" gathering and maybe documentary (the last is a grey area depending on the nature of the doc). The bar is a public space and there is no assumption of privacy in a public place (in the US anyway) so your not likely to get sued on that account. BUT you can't use people in a recognizable way with out permission.

So the surveillance cameras really do count. They are not for "private use" they are to be used in public as evidence (in theory) and footage routinely shows up in public from them. I would put them in a grey area at best. The YouTube videos could, by a big stretch, be called "news" reporting so they probably also slide in a grey area. Crowd shots on a street are another one where if anybody is recognizable you need to have a release and at some point where it's just a blur of people you generally don't. EXCEPT sometimes the buildings or statues etc need a release.

The big difference between all the above and your shoot however is that they were spontaneous and yours is planned. It's not a news story and you will have recognizable elements and people. Even if the other examples fall into grey areas your's doesn't.

BTW "loop groups" who generally create the "walla" don't actually say walla, walla, walla,... It's called that by english speakers because that is what it sounds like all massed together. In other languages it's called other things because in other languages a mass of jabbering sound different. Usually the Loop Group members will hold conversations, of a sort, with the specs of the scene. If it's all english then they will go that way if it's an international party there will be members speaking in a variety of languages.

And ironically given the above it is not unusual to "steal" ambiences and "walla" from real places. All the rules about music still come into play and you still need to make sure individuals are not recognizable in the finished version, but many, many, big budget films have ambiences from real bars and street corners with real people going about their business completely unaware they are being recorded.

Alex is also correct that even if someone here said they thought you could "get away with it" it wouldn't mean anything. It's not a defense. But even a small complaint could shelve you film. It's really not a good idea to gamble that way.

BTW this is a good thing to keep in mind. Almost everything is trademarked in some way. It can help you or hurt you depending on how you approach it. Product labels are protected. You can ignore it and have to reedit your film and deal with somebody's legal department or you can talk to them and maybe they give you a bunch of whatever it is if you will show it clearly. Or do what most do and put made up lables on everything.
 
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