Question about HMC-150 Setup for DOF

R

Richard J

Active member
Hey guys (and gals). I have an HMC-150 that I love! My bread and butter is freelance videography work but I recently opened up shop with my own production company and am lining up about 1 job a week doing commercials. Not a ton of cash but doing what I love and more than paying the bills. I was freelancing for a documentary a couple weeks ago and we used a DOF adapter and I really loved the footage. I could definitely see it making my commercials "pop" a little more.

I have 5 manual Nikon lenses that are all fast from my old film days and was thinking about picking up a Redrock Encore b/c I like the options the spinning glass disc opens up and I have heard good things about Redrock products.

My dilemma is that I just found out you can get an inexpensive adapter to make my nikon lenses work on a canon dslr. For the price of a Redrock setup I could pick up a 7D and get DOF. Getting by with just one camera has not been an issue for me and I don't mind the workflow of the 35mm adapters but I worry that I'm being foolish in not investing in a DSLR. Also, I already capture secondary audio with a modded Marantz PMD 661 so the audio is not an issue. I was pretty much sold on the redrock but my only worry is the light loss for shoots using natural light. A DSLR would get much better low light performance than even my HMC-150... without the adapter. Lastly, I love the look of the HMC-150 footage and am comfortable with the camera even on a tough shoot. What to do? Opinions?
 
Go with the shoot35 SGblade non flipped. The non flip tube will give you better edge to edge sharpness. Not to mention that the rig is less bulky and a bit lighter, and cheaper.
For the price you won't find a better adapter with better buildquality!

Also, you can use different rotorazors (spinning imaging elements), that gives you different ammount of lightloss, looks, and different ammount of DOF.

And the most important thing (IMO): The support from the shoot35 team is just amazing, never seen such a good support as with Wayne from shoot35.

I'm using it with the HMC151, and I can tell you that I don't need to look further. My clients love the results and that's in the end the only thing that matters for me.

My first (quick) try with the Sgblade in natural light with no colorcorrection; http://www.vimeo.com/13215777
 
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Thanks for that Admir. I've looked at Vimeo samples of the SGBlade footage. It's tough comparing footage when everything's so compressed for online streaming... Have you been able to compare raw footage to other adapters and been happy with the result? Which imaging element/rotorazor do you use and or recommend? Light loss is a concern for me so the rotorazor1 might be a good choice but many seem to like the rotorazor2 element.
P.S. Your footage is some of the prettiest I've seen with the adapter. Cheers.
 
Glad that I can help you =)!

I have compared the redrock m2, and the m2 encore, and some letus extreme to my SGblade.
What I can say is that the old m2, is simply older so it can't even nudge the others, the m2 encore is really good, but tends to vignette sometimes. And, it is more expensive in the end.

The letus is a great adapter, but, I simply don't like the look. I would say that the Letus look is the same as the camera's lens but with a lot more DOF on it IMO.

The SGblade (specially with the summer sale right now) is the the priced adapter out there. Not only that, you can choose you speed on the disc depending if you want less noise when shooting with a shotgun mic or something like that. Foremost, you are never stuck with one look, you always have options to change the elemnts for a sharper/more light efficent look.
Something you never could do with any of the other adapters.

Yes, the rotorazor 1 would be perfect then, it loses about 0.7 stops, and still has a fine bokeh. Not to mention, it is a bit sharper than the RR2!

People tend to lean more to the RR2 because of the notorius film-look you get with a gorgeus bokeh, also because of the colors. But I don't think that it would be necesary for you so the RR1 is the best choice for you. The RR3 has about 0.4 stops of lightloss, but, vignettes more and the bokeh is not by near like the other two glasses.

Cheers =)
 
a DOF adapter is a much different look than a 7d or t2i. I have both and am going to keep both. At times I have thought about selling off my xha1's and Handy35 setup. But honestly since shooting with the t2i, it has reestablished my love for that organic film like look that a dof adapter creates. I do enjoy shooting the dslr, and it's a gorgous image, but it's a completely different kind of look. Shallow dof is not just shallow dof, if you know what I mean. The Bokah is very different.
I've been a handy35 fan since using the first v3 model a few yrs ago. Their build quality is simply awesome and their customer service follows suit. The Sgblade is a nice kit as well. But it is higher priced. Either will make you happy. I would stay away from the vibrating models like the brevis and letus. Image quality is night and day (vibrating, spinning) They all have about 1 stop of light loss.
The dslr's destroy any dof rig when it comes to shooting in low light, But you said you do commercials and can take the time to setup a lighting rig.
A t2i and a used dof adapter would be the way to go. If you look around, you should be able to score a dof adapter and a t2i for the price of a new redrock setup.
 
maranfilms. Thanks for your input. I think you having both certainly puts you at a unique advantage for giving advice. A point you bring up is one I have been contemplating. My main use for DOF is not necessarily to get a "filmic" look. I love the look, don't get me wrong, but my main use is not for documentaries but rather commercials. I don't want a soft filmlike look, I want to retain high resolution/crispness and be able to use dof as a creative control to be able to lock the viewers attention on the product or service at hand in the commercial. Would an adapter soften the image in the "in focus" areas as well? I really like shooting with the HMC and love the "crispness" for commercials. Would I lose that with an adapter like the SG Blade? Would a dslr give me a crisp video image (comparable to the HMC) in a controlled setting for a commercial? I think since I already have plenty of fast manual glass on hand the DOF adapter and a 7D would be relative in terms of price. (The 7D's price would be slightly higher but i could sell my current DSLR if I got a 7D which would make it a wash so to speak) Thanks all for your comments.
Studio1972. I have handled (but not edited footage from) a t2i and while I think they probably have great results I like the build quality of Canon's pro models like 7D or 5Dmkii. Also, i know it shouldn't matter, but I think clients perceive a full size 7D as seeming more "professional".

I keep going back and forth between SGBlade with a ROTOrazor1 and the 7D. I think I would be more happy with the workflow of the Blade, I just am concerned that a 7D might give me a sharper image and I would obviously be way better off in natural light conditions. In the end I have to understand that it's not about what workflow I would prefer but what gives my clients the best final product. I appreciate y'alls input b/c I have little experience with either video from a DSLR or video from an adapter. Vimeo is tough to compare b/c of all the compression.
 
The thing with adapters are that they do give you a bit softer image. That's simply because you have more glass between the front lens on the adaptor and all the way back to the cameras sensors. There between you'll lose naturally some light and some sharpness. But it is by no way a critical ammount, you won't have a soft image, the image will be sharp and nice with RR1, so no worries about that IMO.

The 7d will give you better low light options and in some cases a more sharp image, but as said before it simply isn't the same look. Even though you have a nice DOF, the image looks a bit to electronic and digital.
Plus, you wont have some great features that you have on your HMC such as the zebra, or lcd display and the viewfinder, plus you have a great ammount of control over the image when it comes to adjusting it to get that crisp image or filmic look.

DSLR's are great, and they are housing the future for a lot of filmmakers, but not just quite yet, we need to let the baby grow up and learn a bit more before we can call it a filmcamera =).
 
Richard J said:
maranfilms. Thanks for your input. I think you having both certainly puts you at a unique advantage for giving advice. A point you bring up is one I have been contemplating. My main use for DOF is not necessarily to get a "filmic" look. I love the look, don't get me wrong, but my main use is not for documentaries but rather commercials. I don't want a soft filmlike look, I want to retain high resolution/crispness and be able to use dof as a creative control to be able to lock the viewers attention on the product or service at hand in the commercial. Would an adapter soften the image in the "in focus" areas as well? I really like shooting with the HMC and love the "crispness" for commercials. Would I lose that with an adapter like the SG Blade? Would a dslr give me a crisp video image (comparable to the HMC) in a controlled setting for a commercial? I think since I already have plenty of fast manual glass on hand the DOF adapter and a 7D would be relative in terms of price. (The 7D's price would be slightly higher but i could sell my current DSLR if I got a 7D which would make it a wash so to speak) Thanks all for your comments.
Studio1972. I have handled (but not edited footage from) a t2i and while I think they probably have great results I like the build quality of Canon's pro models like 7D or 5Dmkii. Also, i know it shouldn't matter, but I think clients perceive a full size 7D as seeming more "professional".

I keep going back and forth between SGBlade with a ROTOrazor1 and the 7D. I think I would be more happy with the workflow of the Blade, I just am concerned that a 7D might give me a sharper image and I would obviously be way better off in natural light conditions. In the end I have to understand that it's not about what workflow I would prefer but what gives my clients the best final product. I appreciate y'alls input b/c I have little experience with either video from a DSLR or video from an adapter. Vimeo is tough to compare b/c of all the compression.
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Hi Richard,

I have a 550d , but my other half is a photographer and has a 5d Mk 2 so I appreciate the difference in build. Also the 7d is very superior to the 550d for stills (in every way except the sensor of course) so I can understand you wanting that. I have used a DOF adapter on my 151 previously and it is definitely a different look to the 550d, I would say the difference is that the 550d is sharper and has more contrast and is better in low light, on the down side, it does suffer with artifacting like all DSLRs.
 
You should grab the 7d and give it a try. If it's not what your looking for in terms of image and control you should be able to recoupe your money fairly easy. Have you thought about the gh1 with the firmware upgrade? It's a beautiful image, and you would still be able to keep you same glass. Just food for thought.
 
Relating to the "OP" -- I've now spent months field testing almost precisely your question -- a 150/170 plugged into a Letus Ultimate with Zeiss primes and a handful of legendary old full frame 35mm Nikons -- along side a Canon 7D equipped with the Canon 50 mm f/1.4.

The first thing you need to do with the 7D is turn the "sharpness" all the way down to minimum -- because of the "moire" issue -- and the "moire" thing is a massive, gigantic, awe inspiring problem with the 7D. As a professional you couldn't possibly deliver dancing moire to a client for broadcast.

Meaning -- "softness" from a 35 mm adapter may be sharper than your required moire setting on the 7D.

Yesterday, as I filmed short interviews with the 7D (because I didn't feel like lugging around the adapter rig) -- in the shade the camera displayed the over heating warning in less than twenty minutes (high eighties).

For interviews that may last more than twelve minutes (meaning, most stuff), your HMC with an adapter is a set it and forget it type thing. With the 7D, assuming moire isn't totally trashing your image, you need to stare at your watch to monitor that twelve minute limit.

I could go on, and on, an on. I'm not bashing the 7D, because for some very specific video uses it's absolutely magnificent, and as a still camera it is absolutely so awesome that it's turned me, a decade plus Nikon guy, into a Canon guy.

The point -- your question -- is that the 7D in NO WAY replaces an HMC with an adapter.

In terms of the specific adapter, over a year ago we ran through that circus with extreme care and settled on a Letus Ultimate. Redrock is also a good option.
 
Thanks everyone for your comments. I have decided to go the 35mm adapter route. If I decided to use the 7D or Mkii it would mean changing my workflow to adapt to a dslr's specific needs. If I did that I'd prob be better off selling the HMC-150 and picking up a Mkii with a monitor, etc... I'm not prepared to do that yet. I'll let others work out the bugs, I can't afford losing clients b/c I'm troubleshooting bleeding edge technology.

I would like to pick up a 7D as I think it would be great for any photography work and some fun creative work (I do music videos on occasion and think a dslr would thrive in those typically low light situations). As my budget allows I'll hopefully be able to get one in the future. I really appreciate everyone's input. It's great to have forums like this to get the opinions of those with knowledge from actual use of these products.

I'll probably be looking over the next week for a used redrock encore and If I can't find one in my budget probably go with the SGBlade which I hear is a great product. Thanks again for everyones time. Cheers.
 
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