Question about capturing sound in the field.

[ironpony]

I was told way before not to go over 75% on the gain and fader, otherwise it adds noise. I am using the FR2LE. But some sounds are really quiet such as crickets are footsteps. With the gain and fader, both turned up to 75 only, they record at around 40 db sometimes, no more If I try to turn it up in post, I am closer to the noise floor. What produces less noise? Recording under 75% and turning up the amplification later, or going over 75% and then not having to turn it up as much later?

 

[Alex H.]

Adding a cleaner pre-amp in front of the mixer.

The FR2-LE has pretty decent pre-amps, and the idea of not pushing your gain past 75% is a good idea in general, but you just need to test for yourself and see where the noise floor becomes noticeable/unacceptable for you.

Things like crickets are generally going to be so soft in the background (unless you're in a room full of them, like a bait store), that they won't really register on the meters that much. ANd in the final mix, they're going to be so soft in the background of the mix that you won't have to add much gain... if any. Footsteps can be a little louder, especially if close to the mic, but again this is not going to be a "hitting the meters to -12dB" kind of sound.

 

[Justin Kuhn]

Seems logical to concentrate on getting the cleanest possible dialogue and record any good wild sound separately for the mix.

 

[j1clark@ucsd.edu]

Seems logical to concentrate on getting the cleanest possible dialogue and record any good wild sound separately for the mix.

I think 'crickets' are often used as a euphemism for 'boring'...

But I think the OP was interested in capturing low volume cricket tweetings for some sort of FX to mix in at some point to some background audio element.

Is this were some sort of 'parabolic' reflector for a mic would come in, or are such things never used to capture real world sounds?

 

[Jema]

not to go over 75% on the gain and fader, otherwise it adds noise

I'm always very suspicious of this kind of statement, as preamps usually becomes quieter at higher levels. I think the percieved increase in noise is simply because the whole signal is amplified and therefore the noise becomes easier to hear.

The best way to determine this kind of thing is to do a test yourself! Record a sound that you can control the sound level of (something from a speaker?), once with low to mid gain on the FR2, and once again with higher gain. Put the files into a sound editing programme, and adjust the levels so the sound recorded is equally loud in both files. Then you compare the noise.

If you do it, please post about your findings.

 

[ryanjf]

It also depends on the types of mics you're using. MKH30/40 are my favorite mics for recording quiet sources with a sound devices, though sometimes the preamps are a bit noisy themselves..

 

[recordingwhiz]

Are you trying to capture the sounds at the same time as the dialog or at a separate time?

if so are you getting closer to the sound source? (moving the mic close to the feet to pick up footsteps, crickets is a diff story.)

 

[davefisk]

record as hot as possible. You don't want to have to raise the gain later. Better to have to turn the volume down than turn it up. I know I go against the norm in terms of level, so take what I am about to say with a grain of salt, but I always record to just below clipping as much as I can. I guess it comes from my drum tracking days on analog tape where I'd hit the meters hard and saturate the tape. I like having nice, clean, hot dialogue tracks that can be turned down later if need be. Same goes with sound effects, especially quite stuff like crickets, but recording quiet stuff isn't just about levels, you need really good gear like quiet microphones, quite pres, quiet a/d converters..and so on.

 

[BRH]

FR2LE 1.30 firmware

FR2LE 1.30 firmware

I was told way before not to go over 75% on the gain and fader, otherwise it adds noise. I am using the FR2LE. But some sounds are really quiet such as crickets are footsteps. With the gain and fader, both turned up to 75 only, they record at around 40 db sometimes, no more If I try to turn it up in post, I am closer to the noise floor. What produces less noise? Recording under 75% and turning up the amplification later, or going over 75% and then not having to turn it up as much later?

Try 1.30 FR2LE firmware update. Adds 12dB to your preamp gain.
It's here now:
http://www.fostexinternational.com/docs/tech_support/software_updates.shtml#fr2le

 

[Noiz2]

I think 'crickets' are often used as a euphemism for 'boring'...

But I think the OP was interested in capturing low volume cricket tweetings for some sort of FX to mix in at some point to some background audio element.

Is this were some sort of 'parabolic' reflector for a mic would come in, or are such things never used to capture real world sounds?

Yes parabolic mics are used for FX recording sometimes but not for this kind of thing. You can get nice Crix stereo recordings if you want but a lot of times what is used in film is a loop and often mono. But that assumes a layered background. Crix are not "boring" and can be used very dramatically. Usually though they just set the "quiet outdoor evening" kind of feel.

 

[ironpony]

Okay thanks people. Yes I was going for mono, not stereo. Stereo comes in post for me. Crickets are just one thing, this can be applied to any really quiet noise, that will not record loudly.

 

[Rick R]

I concur with Dave, proper gain staging is the best practice. If it's recorded low, the level will just have to be increased in post, bringing up the original noise-floor with it as well as with other artifacts from improper gain-staging and the post gear's own amplifier noise also.

 

[ironpony]

Okay thanks. I've tried some tests, and boosted the levels up in post to see what's what. I did the tests with the gain at 75% so far, and the fader at 75%. If I record a quiet sound with these settings, their will be more noise in post, when you make it louder. But if I record with the gain at 75%, and the fader at 100%, their will be less noise in post. So it seems the fader, you can turn up as high as it goes, and it's better.

I did another test with the gain at 75% and the fader at 100%. I compared that to a test with both the gain and fader at 100%. If I have both at 100, their is very little noise in comparison. The noise goes way down, when boosting quiet sounds higher. However, is it good for the mic to boost the gain and fader both up to 100% Or is that much power bad for the mic? I was told before that each mic takes a different amount of power before it's too much, so how can it be that 100% sounds better therefore?

 

[Steve House]

... However, is it good for the mic to boost the gain and fader both up to 100% Or is that much power bad for the mic? I was told before that each mic takes a different amount of power before it's too much, so how can it be that 100% sounds better therefore?

There is no such thing as "power to the mic" unless you're talking about the phantom power that supplies a condenser mic's operating voltage and that does not change with adjustments to the gain and fader settings. Think of the gain as the coarse setting for the recording level and the fader as the fine adjustment. Start with the fader at mid-scale and adjust the gain to set the proper recording level. Then during the take, if the signal goes a little low increase the fader to compensate and if it goes a little hot, back down the fader a bit. Because different mics provide differing outputs when exposed to a given sound pressure level and the level of the sound hitting the mic will vary from situation to situation depending on the volume of the source and the distance to the mic, there can be no such thing as a generic 'best' setting for the gain - you can't say that setting the gain to 78.3975% gives the best performance in all situations.

 

[Rick R]

Typically when a device does not have pre-fader metering, the fader is set to unity gain and the preamp gain/trim adjusted accordingly. Like a course/fine adjustment analogy.

 

[ironpony]

There is no such thing as "power to the mic" unless you're talking about the phantom power that supplies a condenser mic's operating voltage and that does not change with adjustments to the gain and fader settings. Think of the gain as the coarse setting for the recording level and the fader as the fine adjustment. Start with the fader at mid-scale and adjust the gain to set the proper recording level. Then during the take, if the signal goes a little low increase the fader to compensate and if it goes a little hot, back down the fader a bit. Because different mics provide differing outputs when exposed to a given sound pressure level and the level of the sound hitting the mic will vary from situation to situation depending on the volume of the source and the distance to the mic, there can be no such thing as a generic 'best' setting for the gain - you can't say that setting the gain to 78.3975% gives the best performance in all situations.

Okay thanks, I was told before though that the gain is for powering the mic, and that if you set the gain to high, it will be overpowered, and that once you set the gain in the mic just right, leave that and use the fader to adjust afterwords. Does this mean for quiet sounds I should boost the gain, all the way up then? I was told before that the gain setting, depends on what mic you use, and the fader setting matters for the sound you want to capture.

 

[paulears]

In one topic currently active advice given is to back off the record level, because even a fart will send it over digital zero, and in this topic we advise people to increase levels. There are very few rules. Hiss, once recorded is a pain, so too low a signal is a problem. Distortion is also a bad thing to let happen - so pretty well since recording was invented, the best recordists use their ears and their eyes to record as clean audio as possible. If you use a recorder designed for louder sound sources, then even a decent condenser won't deliver enough level, and only you can experiment with your system to find the optimum settings that work for you. Some people's kit may produce better results recording low and compensating in the computer, other systems may be better with a little more gain from the recorder preamp, and then less in post. No rule - do whatever works best for you.

I have a real liking for the old HHB minidisk recorders - I have two, and these are extremely tolerant of too hot record levels, so on these, because I know them very well, I push levels because the preamps are great and distortion rarely an issue. Another piece of kit I have makes really horrible noises when peaks are too high - so I simply record lower. People really seem to want to have perfect audio, with no time spent experimenting - almost panic stricken if they can't get it right straight away. Everyone keeps saying "I've been told ......" and I'm really wondering who keeps doing this telling, because so much seems really strange advice!

 

[Steve House]

Whoever told you the gain control adjusted "the powering of the mic" (whatever that is) either didn't know what they were talking about or you misunderstood what they were saying. The gain control and faders together are the volume controls of the preamp in the recorder or mixer, adjusting the amount the incoming signal is amplified before passing on up the line. They have exactly the same function as the volume control on your mp3 player.

No, you don't run the gain all the way up for "quiet sounds." You decide on a recording level that gives you a signal as high as possible over the noise floor while preserving adequate headroom so that peaks don't drive up into clipping. As Rick said, you start with the fader at unity gain, typical found at mid-scale or thereabouts (on quality gear it's usually marked on the scale or there's a notch). Then you adjust the gain so the average level during your sound-check falls at the desired recording level on the meters. The lower the output from the mic the higher the gain will have to be set to get good levels but rarely should you ever have to go full-up with it. Then during the take you leave the gain alone and fine-tune the levels as needed with the faders. You need to WATCH the meters and LISTEN to the monitor through headphones throughout the recordsing process - there are NO 'standard settings' that you can dial-in and forget about with the recording running on autopilot while you direct your attention elsewhere.

 

[ironpony]

Okay thanks. I use to do it like Rick said but by doing it that way, my sound kept coming out too quiet. I was told by another guy later, that's because my gain is too low which was causing the recorder to think it was recording the sounds at 12db, when it actually was much lower but the recorder did not know that cause of my settings. I could go back to doing it the way Rick said, but if I do my sounds will just come out too quiet again. It seems to raise the gain as high as possible, then the fader to the desired level. But if that's wrong, then I don't know how to get it loud enough by doing it Rick's way.

 

[Steve House]

Okay, exactly what is your recording chain, what gear, starting from the mic and going all the way through? You said earlier you were using a FR2E but what else in the the chain? You also said you were recording crickets and footfalls - how are you going about that? How are you defining "loud enough," ie, how loud is "loud?" You don't expect the background chirp of crickets or the crunch of footsteps on a gravel path to have the same perceived volume as spoken dialog in the final mix, do you? What are you doing with the track in post once recorded?

What do you mean by "the recorder didn't know that because of my settings?"