I read that if you want to make a feature film that you hope to get distribution out of, that every company will want a dialogue track that has nothing else on it, no SFX, or anything. But how do you record dialogue then, when the actors are speaking while doing things that make noise? For example how would I record dialogue in a walk and talk scene, or a scene where a cop shouts directions to a suspect as he draws his gun and cocks it. The sound of the draw and cock would still be recorded with the dialogue. What I have been doing is putting Foley over top of the original SFX, so the original cannot be heard, and the better recorded Foley can be. Of course I will hire a sound person once a feature comes along, but not even the sound people where I live, know the answer to this one.
Question about audio for distribution.
- Thread starter ironpony
- Start date
Richard Crowley
Veteran
During production, it is the DIALOG that is the #1 priority for the sound crew. Everything else is secondary. Including whatever other sounds may go along with the action or story.
Ideally, there should be NO OTHER sound happening during principal shooting. Any other sounds like the sounds of weapons or other objects, background sounds like crowds or musicians, ambient noises such as traffic or airplanes, etc. should all be collected separately and mixed together under controlled conditions. If you try to record dialog with a live band playing in the background, for example, it will be impossible to edit togther the good takes while maintaining continuity of the music. So you would record the music (and whatever other sounds) all separately.
Then during POST-production all the other sounds (SFX sound effects, ambient noises, Foley, walla, music, etc.) are mixed in, typically each on their own track or set of tracks.
Note that films that are distributed in other languages still use all the sound tracks EXCEPT the dialog track. They just re-dub the dialog track into the new language, ADR-style.
A popular way of organizing this is to create three sub-mixes or "stems" of (1) Dialog, (2) Music, (3) Effects ("DME") Larger productions will have even more stems.
Recommended reading: http://filmsound.org/AudiopostFAQ/audiopostfaq.htm
Also please study carefully the relevant links in the sticky above: "READ THIS FIRST - Audio 101: Helpful links and information"
Ideally, there should be NO OTHER sound happening during principal shooting. Any other sounds like the sounds of weapons or other objects, background sounds like crowds or musicians, ambient noises such as traffic or airplanes, etc. should all be collected separately and mixed together under controlled conditions. If you try to record dialog with a live band playing in the background, for example, it will be impossible to edit togther the good takes while maintaining continuity of the music. So you would record the music (and whatever other sounds) all separately.
Then during POST-production all the other sounds (SFX sound effects, ambient noises, Foley, walla, music, etc.) are mixed in, typically each on their own track or set of tracks.
Note that films that are distributed in other languages still use all the sound tracks EXCEPT the dialog track. They just re-dub the dialog track into the new language, ADR-style.
A popular way of organizing this is to create three sub-mixes or "stems" of (1) Dialog, (2) Music, (3) Effects ("DME") Larger productions will have even more stems.
Recommended reading: http://filmsound.org/AudiopostFAQ/audiopostfaq.htm
Also please study carefully the relevant links in the sticky above: "READ THIS FIRST - Audio 101: Helpful links and information"
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Stems are what you're talking about. These are separate outputs of the dialog tracks, SFX/Foley tracks, music tracks, etc. How many stems depends on the needs of the client or the end distribution target.
As for your question: dialog doesn't record as much of that as you think. Footsteps are generally minimized or eliminated on hard floors by putting soft pads on the actors' shoes, and there are other tricks to minimize sounds that would normally fight with the dialog. It won't take care of everything, but lots of things. The dialog editing process removes many of those things, and often has nothing between lines where there's only movement on screen. The "missing" sounds are then rebuilt and replaced with SFX and Foley, and the ambient background is created in post.
Edit: Richard beat me to it.
As for your question: dialog doesn't record as much of that as you think. Footsteps are generally minimized or eliminated on hard floors by putting soft pads on the actors' shoes, and there are other tricks to minimize sounds that would normally fight with the dialog. It won't take care of everything, but lots of things. The dialog editing process removes many of those things, and often has nothing between lines where there's only movement on screen. The "missing" sounds are then rebuilt and replaced with SFX and Foley, and the ambient background is created in post.
Edit: Richard beat me to it.
Noiz2
Sound Ninja
Actually DM&E is what he is talking about. You could send them stems but that is not really what they are after. For instance you dialog stem will have things in it that they don't want and often things they might want, same with the background stem. Some places don't want any english, so all the crowd walla and general people ambiences need to get swapped out.
Generally this is a separate mix with some new editing to replace things and fill in holes that got created by the removal of the english portions.
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To the OP. Big films will always do the DM&E (Dialog, Music, & Effects as separate stems), low budget films less often and micro budget films almost never.
As to the FX in the dialog track. As others have said in a big production a lot of work goes into not recording anything that isn't dialog. In the little clip you are talking about, the gun is not going to make much noise and if your mic is pointed where it should be (for dialog) you will pick up only a little of the "not much". Also if the actor is not speaking on the cock the dialog editor will cut the cock out and move it to a "PFX" (production FX) track so it's available if anyone wants it but it's not part of the dialog track. Same goes for all the other sounds, they will be cut out and moved if they are not ON dialog and if they are then the same word from another take will get added in sync to an "alt" (alternate take) track. Or, less often when I was doing big features but maybe more common now, will be removed with software designed to do that kind of thing. Rx by iZotope for instance can remove things like a gun cock on a line (most of the time) with out a trace it was ever there.
A big budget dialog track sounds like it was recorded with nothing else in the world going on. It sounds like it's in the "space" most of the time (sets don't necessarily sound like they look so in the mix the dialog will often be sent through processors to place it in the right "environment". As in say Star Wars sets were made mostly of wood, plastic, & plaster. But the ships are visually all hard metal surfaces. So all of that dialog would have been sent through some reverb to make it sound like it was spoken in an environment that was hard and metal rather than boxy and wooden.
You won't hear any footsteps, or door closes, or much of anything BUT dialog.
Everything down to the "cloth" sounds (the sounds of clothes as you walk and move and sit) are added in post. Some of that is Foley but most of it is FX.
As a rule I don't recommend that a micro budget filmmaker try to mimic the big budget post workflow. Mostly because of the time involved and the skill level of those you are likely to be able to bring on board. It's REALLY hard to cut a good clean dialog track, even with really good production tracks. You can make a good effort to not record FX in production but it takes an experienced crew and a bunch of time to actually pull it off. And I'm not talking just sound crew, your art director, props person, costumer, etc all have to do their part.
And you don't get a lot of benefit from all that work. You don't need a pristine dialog track because realistically you are not going to be doing a DM&E, not a full one anyway, unless somebody hands you a check to pay for it. Low budget US films are rarely dubbed, they are subtitled. It's a lot cheaper and there is not the resistance to subtitles in the rest of the world that there is here.
Even a (Hollywood) low budget (as in under $50 mill) film may not do "versions" and a DM&E until there is a need.
So what I generally aim for on a micro budget film is a clean, but not pristine, dialog track. Cut out what you can, work at getting rid of anything that is a problem and leave the rest. As you have found most of your PFX will disappear under the added FX. This is even more so IF you have worked a bit to not record them on set.
Doing a big film FX workflow I do think is worth it. Layer up your tracks and cover everything that you can see (if it moves you should hear it) and all the things you can't see but should be there. The last would be like city sounds coming from outside in an apartment scene. Maybe a baby crying in another apt., etc.
Set up the "world" with the background tracks, if you can close your eyes and still have a good idea of what the scene "looks like" then your on the right track.
And Foley the the footsteps and stuff people handle. In a big film Foley is usually done late in post. First because the film is constantly changing since on a big budget sound starts well before the picture edit is done, and second because if FX can do it then Foley doesn't need to. Foley tends to be the frosting on the cake FX baked.
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On a micro-budget though, cutting out the stems does not seem possible. What if I want to shoot an outdoor scene on the street. Well if a car drives by, that's in the background, if a bird chirps, that's in the background, if the wind blows, you got that. It just seems impossible. Plus a lot of indoor locations are not completely quiet either. If I want to use an office building on the weekend, even though it's very empty, there will still be one or two people that come in by surprise, and I can't control that. What then?
Richard Crowley
Veteran
You simply can not do a completely controlled dialog recording on a micro budget. As you properly observe, you must take shortcuts that preclude getting clean dialog recordings. You can have clean DME stems or you can have a micro-budget, but not both.
j1clark@ucsd.edu
Veteran
Yes it is a lot of work... what Noiz points to, is that you tediously go through each dialog recording, and make cuts at the edges of the 'dialog', and put any 'noisy' other than 'dialog' on a separate track. This would become your Production Sound Effects Track. The 'closely cropped' dialog clips would make your 'dialog track'. Further filtering and editing on the 'dialog track' would produce, in so far as possible, The Clean Dialog Track.
Perhaps you have more bux than most... but I think this is a lot of work for a 'small independent' filmmaker to do... I think cutting things up into 'PFX' and 'DIALOG' is a good idea, since filtering or other editing for Dialog may be quite different from other noises.
But it is tedious...
Then there's dealing with sounds that occur in 'dialog' which require either taking chunks from other takes of the shot, splicing them into the desired location and making everything all match...
(Unless one has some sort of fancy noise reduction software... and even then...).
My friends are also trying to make a feature of a different script right now, and are also seaking distribution. They have asked me to do the sound, but if the distribution market has that demand of a crystal clean track, I don't know I am going to get that since I cannot control the sounds all around us, in the locations. I have emergency equipment as back up, in case the sound person flakes on my projects. I could get the actors to do ADR on the parts of the dialogue with SFX on them, but most actors suck at ADR and that would probably just make it worse. Not that that's an insult, I suck at acting out ADR too generally. Or they could hire some specialist to remove the sounds, although I am not sure how often the quality is still good after.
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j1clark@ucsd.edu
Veteran
There is catchy phrase... 'biting off more than you can chew'... I wonder about people who are 'making a feature length' film... on no budget... and then talk about 'distribution' other than Internet...
Maybe after about 5 or 10 shorts, where one tries to follow some level of 'pro production' workflow... then one can think about a feature... even then...
Richard Crowley
Veteran
+10 for what Mr. Clark said.
In addition, remember that the purpose of having separate DME stems for international distribution is NOT to have "pristine dialog" because that is the track that gets DUMPED in favor of another language. The purpose is to have COMPREHENSIVE M&E tracks so that the dialog can be re-voiced in some other language while retaining all the other sounds of the production. THAT is a little closer to "doable" on a micro-budget.
In addition, remember that the purpose of having separate DME stems for international distribution is NOT to have "pristine dialog" because that is the track that gets DUMPED in favor of another language. The purpose is to have COMPREHENSIVE M&E tracks so that the dialog can be re-voiced in some other language while retaining all the other sounds of the production. THAT is a little closer to "doable" on a micro-budget.
Noiz2
Sound Ninja
Reread my post. You are not going to get that, probably.
But lets take a reality check. Your friends are producing a feature and want you to do sound (production and post?). You have obviously not a lot of experience in post or production at a "professional level". That says a whole lot about what kind of distribution they are likely to even be in the running for. I wouldn't worry much until they get distribution. If that day comes and you have kept your original sessions then is the time to revisit it and polish it up. The hard fact is that other than it being shown at festivals and possible picked up for aDVD run, or internet streaming there is very little chance of "distribution". There are some options for micro budget films but none require DM&E's so don't sweat it. Make the best sounding stereo mix you can. If someone like it you can work it out then.
I have worked on a number of after the fact redos for micro films that got some form of distribution with requirements they hadn't planned for.
As to your examples of things you can't get rid of, some are avoidable, post a PA so nobody walks in on your shoot for instance. The rest happens to big films also and yes yu can remove all or most of it and you hardly ever would need ADR, just lots of post time.
All of this is why the ballpark for post sound, not counting the mix and "design" is 10-15 hours PER SCREEN MINUTE.
Recording wild tracks of your actors speaking their lines (not too long after their scene is over and there is a break) is also very valuable for helping to get clean dialogue. I've been working on the post sound of a 9 minute short, and their is original dialogue, wildlines, and ADR--and, unless I point it out to someone or someone is a sound editor, it would be hard to tell the difference. The film was super micro-micro budget, so it can be done. But your locations matter for sure.
And it takes time!!! I personally did the foley in a friend's large, old basement and it came out nicely. But that also took a good bit of time!
If you are new to all of this--like I am--it takes even more time!
You can almost always only have two of these three: cheap, good, or fast.
And it takes time!!! I personally did the foley in a friend's large, old basement and it came out nicely. But that also took a good bit of time!
If you are new to all of this--like I am--it takes even more time!
You can almost always only have two of these three: cheap, good, or fast.