Purchasing Lights

A

A51Films

Carbonite Member
I'm looking into buying lights (because it seems that by the time I rent for one project I could own the light), but I tend to think a little to much. So I need your help to tell me if this is to much (or even not enough). I'm looking to purchase everything that I would need to light just about any scene.

So I'm considering the following (All Arri Tungsten):

1 - 24k
2 - 12K
4 - 5k
4 - 2k
6 - 1k
8 - 650
12 - 300
16 - 150

I know probably a good 25,000 dollars worth of lights or more; as I said I tend to over do it, what should I drop?
 
This is WAY MORE than $25k worth of sources. Considering that you would want stands, wire scrims, barn doors and you would need a serious investment in distro in addition to the instruments, you could double or triple your estimate.

If you are shooting enough to justify owning (and storing) this number of sources, you are very lucky indeed! I would consider owning a smaller percentage of this and renting when your needs exceed your own resources.
 
are you opening a rental house or are you a DP who just wants his own package?
 
ARRI tungstens are great; HOWEVER, since you have a decent budget, I'd throw in some HMI lights with electronic ballast too. They are (normally) dimmable from around 50% to 100%, and are daylight balanced. They are simply a nicer light.
Furthermore, you could also get some decent fluorescent lights. If you get a mix of all sorts of light it will give you more options and flexibility to light a scene just the way you want.
 
The reason I was going to stay away from HMIs is because of the flicker problems I've heard they have, but if they're not really not that much of a problem then I'll look into them.
 
HMIs can have either magnetic or electronic ballasts. The advantage of the magnetic ones is that they are less expensive, however, you do have to pay attention to shutter angle / frame rate versus the excitation frequency to be "flicker free". Electronic ballasts are free of flicker issues, are much lighter in weight but are more expensive.

HMIs regardless of the type ballast used are much higher in output for the same input power than tungsten sources and are daylight balanced.

If you don't yet have experience with these and all the other types of sources available, I would strongly recommend against purchasing anything. Rent a variety of sources and learn their strengths and weaknesses so that you can make an informed decision once you do reach the purchase stage.
 
If you are going to go into the biz of owning and renting this gear, I would advise finding someone to maintain it as well. If you aren not familiar with HMI's or the globe and ballast technology-mag or electonic it could be a problem. Rentng out gear can be rough on the gear. Often people who have never worked with HMI's and other Tungsten gear will be on the team "learning" and sometimes things will get damaged.
Just my two cents and while you are at it there is a company on ebay pyramid films who are selling a ton of good quality used lighting gear,youmight want to check them out. I just bought two 1k strand fresnels from them . good luck!
 
I second Pyramid Films as a good source of used instruments. I have purchase a number of items from them over the years.
 
If you would like to try out some Joker HMI's at no charge, I could arrange that for you. You can call me at 818.807.2549
 
hmmm, i'd say dropping 25-50k on lights, when you still think that hmis have flicker problems, might just be a bad idea. I mean, i guess it really depends on what you are shooting, but those 24ks and 12ks wont get all that much use, and the kind of people that rent big lights like that already have the connections with the rental/grip houses they use, so it's going to be a really hard market to break into.

But, if you are going to do it, don't force yourself to stick with Arri. Mole and LTM make great lights too. I'd take a small pepper over an Arri 150 any day.
 
For a smaller instrument, I'll take a Dedo over anything! I just love them, never found anything else that even comes close.

I agree with NewYorkLion, don't forget that there are other great brands besides Arri. Mole's seem to last for ever. I have rented things that are nearly as old as I am that are still going strong.
 
I know this may sound stupid, but the reason I don't want Mole is simple because of the color. I prefer the blue/grey-ish or black look of Arri and LTM.


And I pulled this off of Wikipedia, does this seem to give the wrong impression of HMIs ?

"Similar to fluorescent lights, HMI's present problems with color temperature when used for film or video lighting applications. Unlike tungsten units, HMI units do not emit a continuous spectrum of wavelengths with a gradual peak at 3200K, but rather emit various lines, or peaks, of wavelengths that combined appear to be a color temperature closely resembling 5600K on the traditional color temperature scale. This spectrum of wavelengths is inherent in gas discharge sources (such as the sun) and does not occur in blackbody radiator sources, such as a tungsten lamp. The HMI, due to its composition of rare earth halides, produces a rather large green spike in its emission spectrum. This green spike, although slight, tends to result in much harsher and unpleasing color reproduction on film or video. As a result, this green "curse" is often corrected with a 1/8 or 1/4 Color Temperature Blue (CTB) gel.
With HMI bulbs, color temperature varies significantly with lamp age. A brand new bulb generally will output at a color temperature close to 15,000 K during its first few hours burnt. As the bulb burns in, the color temperature reaches its nominal value of around 5600K or 6000K. With age, the arc length becomes larger and larger as more of the electrodes burn away. This results in more voltage being needed to sustain the arc, and as voltage increases, color temperature decreases proportionately at a rate of approximately 0.5 - 1 Kelvin for every hour burnt. For this reason, and other safety reasons, HMI bulbs are not recommended to be used past half their lifetime.
HMI bulbs present an inherent problem of possibly producing light on film or video with a noticeable pulse or flicker. This is caused by the method by which the unit produces light. An HMI, like a tungsten-based lighting unit, runs on 60Hz 120V line voltage (in North America), which means that the lamp cycles on and off 120 times in a second (twice for every line cycle). Although not visible to the human eye, a film or video camera must be properly synchronized to this cycle, or else each frame recorded will show different light output. Tungsten-based lights do not have this problem due to the nature of their operation. Tungsten is a natural blackbody radiator that emits lights in increasing wavelengths proportionate to its temperature. As the filament heats up as electrons pass through it, it emits the correct wavelength of light that it is calibrated for, and although the line voltage is still cycling at the same 60Hz, the filament does not have enough time to significantly cool in between cycles to cause a shift in light output. Therefore the light appears consistent on film and to the human eye. HMI units are more complicated, unfortunately, since they employ an arc that cycles on and off with the line."
 
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I really can't understand why the color of the sources fixture would matter, but no matter, its your call. You should understand the Moles are and have been one of the most popular brands on professional film and television sets for decades.

While some of the information that you have extracted from Wikipedia is accurate, much is not.

Yes, magnetic ballast HMIs can cause a flicker problem if misused, but electronic ones do not have these issues. Magnetic ones are also fine if you know how to use them.

Yes, HMIs age and yes you do have to pay attention to the color temperature, but frankly this is what has always been done. You will never find a professional set without a color temperature meter and a good assortment of correction gels.

Keep in mind that the output of an HMI is much MUCH higher than a similar tungsten source and for a lot of shooting situations (like daytime) is really the only choice that makes any sense at all. Gelling a tungsten up to daylight is going to reduce its output by nearly two stops. This is going to make even a 5K pretty meager in daylight applications.

You really should spend some time with all the different types of instruments that are available as they each have the own character and none is perfect in all situations.

Don't misunderstand me, Arri's are fine, but they are by no means the ultimate solution for all situations. You need a range of choices (Kino, Mole, Arri, Dedo, etc) and I can assure you a rental house that lacks HMIs is gonna be looked at with a lot of suspicion by most professionals.
 
Lighting and Grip Rental house = deep pockets
Trucks, generators, warehouse = deeper pockets
No knowledge of lighting for film and video = bankrupcy

forum = priceless
 
A 24k.. ?
I would second the vote to add HMI's....Those alone in your stable, will add greatly to your rental income.
I would drop a few of your 150's and a couple of your 300's for more 650's and 1k's. Make sure you offer scrims, barndoors and speed rings for softboxes and pancake lanterns, the same for your HMI's.
400 and 800 Jokers would be excellent choices, as well as the general work horse..the 1200 pars. Perhaps a 2.5 k as well.
For your bigger 5k and 12k lights, you'll have a fortune alone in Crankovator type light stands.
Hope ya got a rich Uncle, or are receiving an insurance check.
 
One of the wonderful things about this place (which is still quite new to me) is the patience and knowledge of the people who day after day give of themselves to help others in their quest to learn which includes me most of the time after 25+ years in the business.
I must admit to being a bit of grouchy bugger when the debate circles what clearly to me is a hypothetical situation. So with that said I strongly suggest, you go spend some of your time learning and working with people and equipment in a real life situation. To quote technical specs from Wikipedia in this forum as a defense for an opinion that is founded on little or no experience is frankly a pain in the ass.
grrrrrrr......
 
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