Purchasing DVX | Need Advice

G

Gordon JL

Well-known member
Though this post is my first on these forums, this is not my first time being here. Most of the questions I have to ask have not really been answered yet, as I've already done a search on them. So here they are:



1.) Is there such a thing as a dvx200 or is that just false rumor that has been discredited?

2.) When will the dvx100b be coming out; and will there be a price difference in that camera, or will it retail for the same price as the dvx100a?

3.) There is a $300 rebate that probably everyone knows about already; but will it apply to the dvx100b (assuming the camera comes out before the deadline for the rebate)? If not, will there possibly be a similar type of rebate thing (plus the $700 worth of accessories, magic bullet software, and Barry Green's book+dvd) for that camera as well, or is this not known? I'm trying to decide whether or not I should purchase the dvx100a or wait for the dvx100b to come out.

4.) Besides the dvx100a, the XL2, and their predecessors, what other prosumer 24p camcorders are on the market right now? Or are those pretty much the creme de la creme of 24p prosumer cameras? I already know there is the new hvx200 camera coming out (and that JVC one).

5.) I've noticed the same authorized dealers come up often when asked for places to buy the dvx100a, but are they considered the least expensive? I'm looking for a possible list of the top least expensive authorized dealers that is recommended by Panasonic (or not). Here's a question that never seems to get answered; how can you tell if a dealer is authorized or not and is there an official list released by Panasonic?

6.) What is the anamorphic 16:9 lens for (I see it mentioned a lot); and why didn't the DOP for that film Lonesome Jim use one? This was mentioned in the article on the front page...

7.) And lastly, how do you tell the difference between a dvx100 and a dvx100a?



Sorry for all the questions -- thanks in advance to whoever takes the time to answer them!
 
1 - No such physical-touchable thing as of today.

2 - Don't know when it will come out. Can't say there'll be a big price difference. I've heard one of the only things being changed is having a lead free design.

3 - Don't count on having a rebate as soon a the 100b comes out. It will probably take a while before rebates and other free things are offered w/ it. Purchase the 100a NOW!

4 - Sony HVR-Z1U HDV cam

5 - EVS is probably the least expensive / authorized dealer and also the best tech support. If you go to Panasonic.com, go to where the 100a is, click to find dealers and it will give you a list of local authorized dealers.

6 - The 16:9 lens turns the dvx into a native 16:9 camera. Do a search, you'll find A LOT more info.

7 - Technical or appearance differences? I think there's like 26-somethin' changes between the 100 and 100a.
 
If the HVR-Z1U is capable of both HD and 24p, why do so many people consider the HVX200 to be the first to combine those two and be available to the consumer? And how does the HVR-Z1U compare to the dvx100a? I'm suspecting that the HVR-Z1U isn't actually true 24p, but if it is, than there should be more fuss around this camera.

The Panasonic website only offers "local" authorized dealers; I'm looking for a list of all of them, or some online that are not necessarily local.

Aside from the 16:9 anamorphic adaptor, what other essential devices/software/stuff do you need to help give DVX that "film look" and or "movie feel" to it? I've read about this mini35 thing or some kind of "follow focus" device, although I'm not sure what it is... Anything else?

Oh, and I wanted to know the physical differences between the dvx100 and dvx100a, so I can tell if I've been scammed when I do decide to buy one.

Thanks for the patience!
 
Gordon JL said:
1.) Is there such a thing as a dvx200 or is that just false rumor that has been discredited?
Click to expand...
No - there is not a DVX200
Gordon JL said:
2.) When will the dvx100b be coming out; and will there be a price difference in that camera, or will it retail for the same price as the dvx100a?
Click to expand...
Not sure on the release date. From what I've read the only difference will be in material used in making it to make it compliant with European standards. Sort of like no lead in paint here in the states. There must be some mercury or lead in the camera that the European market has asked to be removed.
Gordon JL said:
3.) I'm trying to decide whether or not I should purchase the dvx100a or wait for the dvx100b to come out.
Click to expand...
Get the DVX100A if you don't need HD and can't wait/afford the HVX.
Gordon JL said:
5.) I've noticed the same authorized dealers come up often when asked for places to buy the dvx100a, but are they considered the least expensive? I'm looking for a possible list of the top least expensive authorized dealers that is recommended by Panasonic (or not). Here's a question that never seems to get answered; how can you tell if a dealer is authorized or not and is there an official list released by Panasonic?
Click to expand...
Someone above already mentioned where to find the list of authorized dealers... Just go with EVS and be done with it.
Gordon JL said:
7.) And lastly, how do you tell the difference between a dvx100 and a dvx100a?
Click to expand...
I beleive the DVX100 is gray/black while the 100A is Silver/black - Plus it clearly says 100 or 100A on the side of the LCD screen.
 
Gordon,

addressing where to buy:
any dealer that can significantly beat the price EVS offers is probably not being entirely up front about what they will deliver. if you do a price comparison on the web, someone like "abes of maine" will pop up for $500 less. while they may say to your face that they are offering a US unit with all that comes with (rebate, magic bullet, Barry's book, Panasonic USA warantee, extra battery, & tapestock), they will be LIEING to you. I promise.

It is ok to purchase a grey market unit if that is what you want, just do not be fooled by these dealers who so freely misrepresent what they are offering. Personally I do not think the savings is worth the trade-offs (no warantee, no extras, probably a sleazy dealer).

If you really search, you might find someone legit that is willing to beat the EVS or B&H price, but I doubt it. You have come to the right place for guidance, make the purchase easy and hassle free so that you can focus on learning the camera and shooting.

The best cheaper alternative is to purchase a used camera from a verifiable source. You could also try and find a 100 rather than a 100a. There is a breakdown of the 26 improvements Panasonic incorporated into the 100a model in Barry's book. I'm sure if you do a search on this board, you'll find a lot of threads that address this question.
 
Gordon JL said:
If the HVR-Z1U is capable of both HD and 24p,
Click to expand...
It's not. It has a fake pseudo-24p simulation mode which results in unnatural motion rendition, lower resolution, variable resolution between frames. Most who have used a Z1 would recommend to avoid its Cineframe 24 mode.
why do so many people consider the HVX200 to be the first to combine those two and be available to the consumer?
Click to expand...
Well, it won't be. The first will be the JVC HD100, due sometime around July/August. It will bring genuine 720/24p to the lower-cost market. The Panasonic will be the first under-$100,000 camera to offer 1080/24p.
 
bilgami said:
Is there really going to be a dvx100b in the future?
Click to expand...
Jan has said "yes", although there has been no announcement on any potential changes (other than to say that it employs a new manufacturing process that removes lead, for environmental reasons).
 
motion rendition, lower resolution, variable resolution
Click to expand...

"Lower resolution" in this case really means "lower effective resolution" ("1440"x540) where "1440" represents the limitations of pixel shifting from 960 in a 3CCD sysem, and the 540 is due to a single field being sampled of the 1080 chip. This resolution is still more than twice that of the DVX or the XL2, and the information is still stored at 1440x1080i (2:3 pull-down) in a 15 GOP MPEG-2 transport stream.

I expect Barry's "variable resolution" comment is just digging at the MPEG-2 GOP. But this isn't so much a flaw of CF24 over other HDV modes, but rather a flaw of HDV in general... one that, at down-sampled SD resolutions (if you want to compare to what the DVX or XL2 output) really doesn't enter into the argument at all, since the MPEG artifacts more or less disappear at SD resolution. Not to mention the gains in colour space information...

Really, if you want dis the FX1/Z1 solution with respect to the XL2 or the DVX, you've got to go on the motion sampling, in-camera colour controls, lattitude, and audio options.

-Spiff
 
Spiff said:
I expect Barry's "variable resolution" comment is just digging at the MPEG-2 GOP. But this isn't so much a flaw of CF24 over other HDV modes, but rather a flaw of HDV in general...
Click to expand...
Nope -- it's an egregious flaw in the design of CF24, and really has nothing to do with MPEG-2. CineFrame 24 works (if you can call what it does "works") by combining fields from different frames to try to simulate a look of 24 distinct frames per second. But in the process, using those different fields from different frames causes a disturbing "pulsing" effect, which means that on any group of five frames, you'll get three different perceived resolutions! The first two frames out of a group of five will have a discernable resolution of about 475 vertical lines. The next two frames will have discernable resolution of about 425 lines(!) and the final frame in the group has a discernable resolution of 575 lines! So if you point the camera at a still scene, you'll see an unnatural pulsing and jitter on fine-detail objects. CF24, no matter how you slice it, is grossly flawed, and it's not related to the MPEG compression at all.

Really, if you want dis the FX1/Z1 solution with respect to the XL2 or the DVX, you've got to go on the motion sampling, in-camera colour controls, lattitude, and audio options.

-Spiff
Click to expand...
Wasn't intending to "dis" the FX1/Z1, only to answer the question as to what CF24 is, and how it isn't 24p. The JVC HD100 is MPEG-2 and will offer 24p, and I'll go out on a limb and say that it will suffer none of the irregularities that are present in CF24. It's not the MPEG-2 that's causing the problem (although that causes its share of other problems); it's the way they try to split/drop/combine 60 fields into simulating 24 progressive frames.
 
split/drop/combine 60 fields into simulating 24 progressive frames
Click to expand...

The discrepancies in resolution you describe are due to a resolution difference between upper and lower fields in a 1080i signal, if I read your statement properly. All my tests and footage indicate that CF24 is a field dropper. Plain and simple... Acquire 60 fields, drop 46 of them, double the rest, and record with a 2:3 pull-down. The "perceived resolution" with the pull-down reversed (which any competent post-production, editing, or displaying apparatus should do), would only result in 2 different resolutions as opposed to three, with the most noticable artifact being a 1-pixel waver at the top and bottom of the frame - which can be easily removed with a 1-pixel crop.

While some fine-detail waver would in theory be present, can you honestly say it's highly observable? I certainly can't see it on my footage... but it's not locked down footage (rather steady hand-held stuff instead). Locked down shots at 24p are kind of useless IMO*. (different opinion of 60i - as that gives the whole "window" feel).

Note that fine detail waver won't appear in CF30 modes, as the camera only samples 1 field repeatedly.

CF24, no matter how you slice it, is grossly flawed
Click to expand...

It is and never was anything more than Sony claimed it to be. It's a feature that never claims to be 24p.

The JVC HD100 is MPEG-2 and will offer 24p, and I'll go out on a limb and say that it will suffer none of the irregularities that are present in CF24
Click to expand...

Out on a limb? More like sitting on a stump! If the HD100 doesn't do true 1280x720 24P and do it well, it would be a ridiculous product.

-Spiff

*By useless I mean uninteresting. I much prefer dynamic camera motion - dollies, cranes, steadycam (even pans and zooms), to locked off shots in narrative projects.
 
Spiff said:
The discrepancies in resolution you describe are due to a resolution difference between upper and lower fields in a 1080i signal, if I read your statement properly. All my tests and footage indicate that CF24 is a field dropper. Plain and simple... Acquire 60 fields, drop 46 of them, double the rest, and record with a 2:3 pull-down. The "perceived resolution" with the pull-down reversed (which any competent post-production, editing, or displaying apparatus should do), would only result in 2 different resolutions as opposed to three, with the most noticable artifact being a 1-pixel waver at the top and bottom of the frame - which can be easily removed with a 1-pixel crop.
Click to expand...
You may find Adam Wilt's description of CF24 quite interesting -- I know I did.
http://adamwilt.com/HDV/cineframe.html


While some fine-detail waver would in theory be present, can you honestly say it's highly observable? I certainly can't see it on my footage...
Click to expand...
On any locked-down shot, observing fine detail, it's easily observable. In motion, no, as the detail twitter is hidden through pans/tilts etc. But just looking at a streetscape, the detail crawl around the stop sign was easily noticeable, and objectionable.


It is and never was anything more than Sony claimed it to be. It's a feature that never claims to be 24p.
Click to expand...
Well, that's a matter of perspective. Sony clearly said in their Z1 press release that the camera "can record HDV, DVCAM and DV images at 60i, 50i, 30, 25 or 24 frames per second,", and it clearly does not. And that misrepresentation could be responsible for much of the confusion.
Quote taken from the Z1's official press release, at:
http://news.sel.sony.com/pressrelease/5327


Out on a limb? More like sitting on a stump! If the HD100 doesn't do true 1280x720 24P and do it well, it would be a ridiculous product.
Click to expand...
Oh, I thoroughly agree. But until it's seen and demonstrated, I'm still going to hang on to the equivocation, until how it works is proven. Already we've heard two conflicting reports, one that it shoots actual 24p and writes it to tape as 24p, and one saying that no it doesn't, instead it shoots at 24fps and writes that to tape as 60p (even though the camera can't record a native 60p stream). And then there's the issue of the motion smoothing filter, which shoots 48fps and blends frames together to create "motion smoothed" 24p -- which sounds an awful lot like the results you'd get from shooting 24p at 1/24th shutter speed, but there must be something different because JVC's patented the technique.

So until definitive clarification is offered, all I feel confident in saying is that it SHOULD be true 720/24p recorded in MPEG-2... but as John Hudson's been saying, there's the way things should be, and there's the way things are. We'll have to see what things ARE. I expect it to be legit 24p. I do not expect to be disappointed.
 
Barry_Green said:
Jan has said "yes", although there has been no announcement on any potential changes (other than to say that it employs a new manufacturing process that removes lead, for environmental reasons).
Click to expand...

Which sort of implies that you can go dumpster-diving, or check local landfills for a DVX.

Personally, I don't think it likely. But I never throw anything away, anyway. :evil:

Dan
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top