Punk Exterminator Western Horror Short (Canon 5D)

S

Super8Steve

New member
Hello
I've been a "bookmarked" reader of DVXUSER for years now (since owning the dvx100a) and had been getting great tips, advice, and inspiration from this particular forum long before I even acquired my Canon 5D. I recently put those tips and advice to use, and would like to invite you check out my 4 min short horror film "T is for Termite" shot on the 5D. I used Technicolor Cinestyle and graded in post.

It's told in the pulpy spirit of writer Robert E. Howard's weird western horror tales, and is about a punk exterminator who goes into abandoned houses to clear them of unspeakable termite monstrosities. It was made for the Alamo Draft House "ABC's of Death" film contest.

I welcome any critical feedback and appreciate your time and consideration
Thanks
Steve
http://vimeo.com/29865713
 
Job well done :)

Great location.

Personally I'd have preferred to have not seen the termite. I liked the way it was going when we weren't seeing them and the Polaroid angle was a nice touch.
 
Symon said:
Job well done :)

Great location.

Personally I'd have preferred to have not seen the termite. I liked the way it was going when we weren't seeing them and the Polaroid angle was a nice touch.
Click to expand...

Hey Symon
Thank you so much for taking the time to watch. I appreciate the feedback.
 
Great work, Super8Steve! I really enjoyed it too. I love the low angle shot as he walks into the building and the other one as he walks between those small, white columns. I agree with Symon too. The location is great, but as nicely done as the termite is I would prever not to see it. In this case I think that the terror that you don't see would be all the more frightening and the film does such a great job of selling the idea of this big, scary bug through sound design and the exterminator's performance.
 
Nick Wernham said:
Great work, Super8Steve! I really enjoyed it too. I love the low angle shot as he walks into the building and the other one as he walks between those small, white columns. I agree with Symon too. The location is great, but as nicely done as the termite is I would prever not to see it. In this case I think that the terror that you don't see would be all the more frightening and the film does such a great job of selling the idea of this big, scary bug through sound design and the exterminator's performance.
Click to expand...

Hey Nick
Thank you for checking out the film and offering your thoughts. I agree, one's brain conjures much more horrible images than one could ever actually show on film. By the way, I filmed those low angle shots with the beautiful and ridiculously wide Canon 14mm L series lens on a Glidetrack HD hybrid slider.
Steve
 
Visually very nice and the acting was very good. I kind of agree with the I don't want to see the termite but I thought you did a good job of not showing much of it. I would probably go with even less. It seems kind of big slow and ponderous so I didn't find in menacing. I would have probably opted for showing just a bit as in maybe a close up of an eye or a foot?

I'm a sound person and I think you have a C+ compared to a released film and an A- on an indi scale.

I would have wanted more Foley. You put in some wood creaks, good, but you didn't cover the footsteps. The termite would have been scarier if we could have heard his body movements. It was very mixed in effectiveness. The opening and closing seq is really good but it's just a hair off. It doesn't quite sync with the pictures and it doesn't quite hit the beat to lead into the music. It's close and the concept is really good, the sounds work together but they aren't in sync so instead of having a tight drive into the seq or the end music they are a little like the one guy in the audience who is clapping between beats.

This may have had more to do with what you edited sound in. ie picture editor apps (Avid FCP) are not precise enough to do sound. They are Frame based and you really need a sound editing app that can go a lot finer.

All in all very good work.

Cheers
SK


Scott Koue
www.scottkouesound.com
http://imdb.com/name/nm0468138/
 
Noiz2 said:
Visually very nice and the acting was very good. I kind of agree with the I don't want to see the termite but I thought you did a good job of not showing much of it. I would probably go with even less. It seems kind of big slow and ponderous so I didn't find in menacing. I would have probably opted for showing just a bit as in maybe a close up of an eye or a foot?

I'm a sound person and I think you have a C+ compared to a released film and an A- on an indi scale.

I would have wanted more Foley. You put in some wood creaks, good, but you didn't cover the footsteps. The termite would have been scarier if we could have heard his body movements. It was very mixed in effectiveness. The opening and closing seq is really good but it's just a hair off. It doesn't quite sync with the pictures and it doesn't quite hit the beat to lead into the music. It's close and the concept is really good, the sounds work together but they aren't in sync so instead of having a tight drive into the seq or the end music they are a little like the one guy in the audience who is clapping between beats.

This may have had more to do with what you edited sound in. ie picture editor apps (Avid FCP) are not precise enough to do sound. They are Frame based and you really need a sound editing app that can go a lot finer.

All in all very good work.

Cheers
SK


Scott Koue
www.scottkouesound.com
http://imdb.com/name/nm0468138/
Click to expand...

Hey Scott
Man, I really appreciate you taking the time to view the film and offering your thoughts. I hear you on the foley work for sure, but somewhat perplexed on the "out of sync" comment in regards to intro/outro sync. It is in sync and wonder if it was bunky playback on Vimeo as sometimes streaming is a tad "sticky" on that site. Regardless, you make some great points and constructive criticism. I did the sound and the mix myself, something I would like to get better with to achieve that "real movie" sound. If you have any good resources, or sites in that department that you would recommend, I'm all ears.
Thanks again
Steve
 
OK stepping through the opening..
____________________________________
movie: T IS FOR TERMITE {ABC's of Death Film Contest} on Vimeo.mp4
size: 1280 X 720
length: 00:04:35:08
overall notes:
________________________________________

movietime: 00:00:07:14 -

movietime: 00:00:11:07 - ?? lots of handling noise when we have been on a non moving shot of a cartrige.

movietime: 00:00:11:09 - we see it driven home but that sound is not here\

movietime: 00:00:11:12 - Button press but the sound happens later

movietime: 00:00:12:15 - The cass makes very little sound going in and the close is late


movietime: 00:00:15:13 - casstte stops before the cut, would be OK if htere was a sound comming in but we cut to quiet with a CU of cassette spinning

movietime: 00:00:16:03 - happens again


movietime: 00:00:16:17 - button pops up late relative to sound


movietime: 00:00:18:05 - Shotgun sound is early relative to picture

-------------------------

Vimeo is always balky for me, don't know why so I download the films and watch them off the HD.

Now it is possible that your using all production sound and so the sync is "correct" but that often doesn't work for a number of reasons.

First off there is a certain amount of lag between visual and sound because they travel at significantly different speeds. So if your not right on top of something your sync is going to be recorded a bit off in the first place. But the bigger one is people don't know what things really sound like. Even if you own a shotgun you probably haven't ever loaded it with your eye an inch from the chamber. So when something happens movie goers expect to hear it. And a lot of times you may be putting sound on things you wouldn't normally hear. Anyway "out of sync" is probably too extreme it more what would be called "soft" or rubbery. It's not going to be anything an audience can pick out but if you slid some of the sounds a touch you would feel the difference.

One big key to this kind of sequence is musical timing and you do seem to have a pretty good sense of that. Again a touch here and there and it would make a big difference.

For the end seq it's probably the same little moves but also the shot gun really wants to be the first beat of the music. So if you copied the first bar or so move it forward and sync the beats them the shotgun should do it's final hit on the last beat of the copies bar. Then you mute or delete the copied music bar.

And again nobody is going to point that out who isn't very into sound but they would feel it. Right now there is the slightest stuter-step into the music.

The audio section of DVX User has a lot of info. I have a blog that is way behind in updates but has some stuff.

I'm working on a new project that will be a series of short tutorials on sound with very specific topics. Say a 15 min one on how to cut a fight seq. What to layer up etc. and will include the sounds used in the tutorial and probably an option to get more sounds related to that topic.

the DUC is a somewhat technical and ProTools oriented forum but you can learn a lot from the postproduction section.


BTW it's Foley not foley. It's always capitalized because it's someones name. Seems like a small thing but it will erk sound professionals if you don't capitalize it.

Cheers
SK


Scott Koue
www.scottkouesound.com
http://imdb.com/name/nm0468138/
 
Wow. What a thorough and well thought-out response, Scott. Even though this isn't my film I read through all of that and learned a few things in the process. I know very little about sound. Thank you. :)
 
Noiz2 said:
OK stepping through the opening..
____________________________________
movie: T IS FOR TERMITE {ABC's of Death Film Contest} on Vimeo.mp4
size: 1280 X 720
length: 00:04:35:08
overall notes:
________________________________________

movietime: 00:00:07:14 -

movietime: 00:00:11:07 - ?? lots of handling noise when we have been on a non moving shot of a cartrige.

movietime: 00:00:11:09 - we see it driven home but that sound is not here\

movietime: 00:00:11:12 - Button press but the sound happens later

movietime: 00:00:12:15 - The cass makes very little sound going in and the close is late


movietime: 00:00:15:13 - casstte stops before the cut, would be OK if htere was a sound comming in but we cut to quiet with a CU of cassette spinning

movietime: 00:00:16:03 - happens again


movietime: 00:00:16:17 - button pops up late relative to sound


movietime: 00:00:18:05 - Shotgun sound is early relative to picture

-------------------------

Vimeo is always balky for me, don't know why so I download the films and watch them off the HD.

Now it is possible that your using all production sound and so the sync is "correct" but that often doesn't work for a number of reasons.

First off there is a certain amount of lag between visual and sound because they travel at significantly different speeds. So if your not right on top of something your sync is going to be recorded a bit off in the first place. But the bigger one is people don't know what things really sound like. Even if you own a shotgun you probably haven't ever loaded it with your eye an inch from the chamber. So when something happens movie goers expect to hear it. And a lot of times you may be putting sound on things you wouldn't normally hear. Anyway "out of sync" is probably too extreme it more what would be called "soft" or rubbery. It's not going to be anything an audience can pick out but if you slid some of the sounds a touch you would feel the difference.

One big key to this kind of sequence is musical timing and you do seem to have a pretty good sense of that. Again a touch here and there and it would make a big difference.

For the end seq it's probably the same little moves but also the shot gun really wants to be the first beat of the music. So if you copied the first bar or so move it forward and sync the beats them the shotgun should do it's final hit on the last beat of the copies bar. Then you mute or delete the copied music bar.

And again nobody is going to point that out who isn't very into sound but they would feel it. Right now there is the slightest stuter-step into the music.

The audio section of DVX User has a lot of info. I have a blog that is way behind in updates but has some stuff.

I'm working on a new project that will be a series of short tutorials on sound with very specific topics. Say a 15 min one on how to cut a fight seq. What to layer up etc. and will include the sounds used in the tutorial and probably an option to get more sounds related to that topic.

the DUC is a somewhat technical and ProTools oriented forum but you can learn a lot from the postproduction section.


BTW it's Foley not foley. It's always capitalized because it's someones name. Seems like a small thing but it will erk sound professionals if you don't capitalize it.

Cheers
SK


Scott Koue
www.scottkouesound.com
http://imdb.com/name/nm0468138/
Click to expand...
GOOD LORD man. Wow indeed. Thanks for the detailed walk through. Yes, most of that sound was not sync sound and was added in post. I agree, some people do want to hear things as they see them, and I prefer that technique when doing these tightly cut montages. They are equally, if not more so, sound driven so it's very true that sound was rearranged...coming in too soon, etc. to beef up the cut, etc. I appreciate your keen ear and critique of my sound, which unfortunately goes un-mentioned in most discussions. I'll be sure to check out your blog. Your tutorial sounds like a fantastic idea and I look forward to seeing it.
Steve
ps...here is the film on Youtube. I'd be curious to see if it "fixed" some of your sync criticisms.
http://youtu.be/iU0Gtk8oOB0
 
No YouTube seems the same. As I said I didn't watch it on line, I pulled it down and watched off line.
 
Hey Scott
Ah. Ok.
I've re-read your detailed breakdown several times and am fascinated by your analogy with the edits and sound fx as musical beats. Very cool. This is exactly why the end music coming in "off beat" from the shotgun as you mentioned, is an effective technique. It takes you by surprise and seems "off" to those who's ears fall into the natural rhythm of the previous quick sound edits. In a horror film, this unexpected "unnatural" edit works nicely. It takes you by surprise and feels strange. On a similar note, I read that Tobe Hooper, director of the revolutionary "Texas Chainsaw Massacre" (1974) would find the "correct" rhythmic spot in his footage to make an edit, and then would either take the edit a few odd frames earlier or later, thus subconsciously effecting how viewers felt as they watched the film. I've attempted this as well, with questionable results. Ha.
Thanks again Scott.
 
Super8Steve said:
Hey Scott
Ah. Ok.
I've re-read your detailed breakdown several times and am fascinated by your analogy with the edits and sound fx as musical beats. Very cool. This is exactly why the end music coming in "off beat" from the shotgun as you mentioned, is an effective technique. It takes you by surprise and seems "off" to those who's ears fall into the natural rhythm of the previous quick sound edits. In a horror film, this unexpected "unnatural" edit works nicely. It takes you by surprise and feels strange. On a similar note, I read that Tobe Hooper, director of the revolutionary "Texas Chainsaw Massacre" (1974) would find the "correct" rhythmic spot in his footage to make an edit, and then would either take the edit a few odd frames earlier or later, thus subconsciously effecting how viewers felt as they watched the film. I've attempted this as well, with questionable results. Ha.
Thanks again Scott.
Click to expand...

I was going to call that BS, but...

It can be an effective technique IF that is what you had in mind and it's a consistent thing (not the off beat but the surprise). But if you had planned it you probably would have mentioned it before...

I'm pointing this out because there is a no budget "trap" that happens where very well thought out and planned processes by filmmakers get used as excuses of sloppiness. Not that your doing this but you need to be careful (with your self - let the PR BS fly) about what was planned and what was a happy accident and what was just a mistake.

Now assuming that the off cut in TCSM was a real planned thing and not some PR BS, it was talked about and played with and very carefully worked out. There is a similar thing you can do with sound where you have some BG sound that is really low to the point people forget they are hearing it. Then you take it away and the audience is uneasy and they don't know why.

But you have to think those things out. Every once in awhile you do something that just works and you figure it out afterward but mostly you plan it out ahead and tune it a bit after.

In this case I think it's a mistake. Going into the end credits is the wrong place to make your audience feel like something just went wrong. Opening seq you would have a better argument.

Now the big disclaimer.

As a sound supervisor my primary function is to make the directors vision come through. If I was working for you and you said you wanted the stutter in the music, I would argue against it (that is also my job) but we would try it. If it worked for you I'm not going to kiss your but and say I love it but if you do then that is the way it is.

So I will challenge you here because I think everyone should have to defend their choices - you make better ones if you have to defend them. But as the final creative "decider" you get your way.

Personally I think IF your going to do the jumps you want them where it's significant emotionally, the end credits is not one of those places.
 
I liked it. Cinematography and lighting was great! I really enjoyed the use of wide angles (thanks to the full-frame). It really created a nice visually looking short.
Good job.
 
I liked it including the monster. There's an argument to be made for suggested horror ala Robert Wise's "Haunting" but it's a matter of taste and for me this isn't that kind of piece and I'd feel cheated not seeing the money shot. The bookended push in/pull out was effective. The "F-- off" on the gun was a nice touch to inform character. Reminds me a little of "Troll Hunter." Didn't get the camera bit, but probably missed something the first time through, I'll take another look. Nice work.
 
Last edited:
Noiz2 said:
I was going to call that BS, but...

It can be an effective technique IF that is what you had in mind and it's a consistent thing (not the off beat but the surprise). But if you had planned it you probably would have mentioned it before...

I'm pointing this out because there is a no budget "trap" that happens where very well thought out and planned processes by filmmakers get used as excuses of sloppiness. Not that your doing this but you need to be careful (with your self - let the PR BS fly) about what was planned and what was a happy accident and what was just a mistake.

Now assuming that the off cut in TCSM was a real planned thing and not some PR BS, it was talked about and played with and very carefully worked out. There is a similar thing you can do with sound where you have some BG sound that is really low to the point people forget they are hearing it. Then you take it away and the audience is uneasy and they don't know why.

But you have to think those things out. Every once in awhile you do something that just works and you figure it out afterward but mostly you plan it out ahead and tune it a bit after.

In this case I think it's a mistake. Going into the end credits is the wrong place to make your audience feel like something just went wrong. Opening seq you would have a better argument.

Now the big disclaimer.

As a sound supervisor my primary function is to make the directors vision come through. If I was working for you and you said you wanted the stutter in the music, I would argue against it (that is also my job) but we would try it. If it worked for you I'm not going to kiss your but and say I love it but if you do then that is the way it is.

So I will challenge you here because I think everyone should have to defend their choices - you make better ones if you have to defend them. But as the final creative "decider" you get your way.

Personally I think IF your going to do the jumps you want them where it's significant emotionally, the end credits is not one of those places.
Click to expand...
HA. As a filmmaker, most of what I do is BS Scott. Would you be willing to possibly work on a future project with me doing sound?
 
drapeama said:
I liked it. Cinematography and lighting was great! I really enjoyed the use of wide angles (thanks to the full-frame). It really created a nice visually looking short.
Good job.
Click to expand...
Thanks for taking the time to watch it. I shot those wides with the amazing Canon 14mm L series lens.
 
RollyCrump said:
I liked it including the monster. There's an argument to be made for suggested horror ala Robert Wise's "Haunting" but it's a matter of taste and for me this isn't that kind of piece and I'd feel cheated not seeing the money shot. The bookended push in/pull out was effective. The "F-- off" on the gun was a nice touch to inform character. Reminds me a little of "Troll Hunter." Didn't get the camera bit, but probably missed something the first time through, I'll take another look. Nice work.
Click to expand...
I appreciate your time and the fact you dug showing the soldier termite. The camera bit was to suggest that this character, a prisoner serving out a prison sentence as an exterminator, always documents his kills after clearing a termite nest. I realize the film is rather vague in explaining this. Haven't seen Troll Hunter yet but look frwd to it. Thanks again.
 
HA. As a filmmaker, most of what I do is BS
Click to expand...
;~) I had an english teacher in high school who would in certain cases as her way to tell you you needed to redo the paper had a "BS" rubber stamp.

Would you be willing to possibly work on a future project with me doing sound?
Click to expand...
Sure. email me.

RE: photos etc. Someone once told me a feature is a short story and a short is a one liner. You don't really have time to give much background and in fact it is a problem for many shorts that they try to explain everything. So I also had no real idea of why he shot photos but didn't really care. I actually really liked that there was a lot that just was and you really had no idea why. In a feature that would probably have been a problem but for a short I think it was a good choice.
 
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