PS mode (1080p60) first impressions

M

mcbob

Veteran
From a corporate job, so no footage at the moment, sorry. Client tends to occasionally slow-mo demonstration footage and usually asks for 1080i60, so I thought it would be a perfect application.

FIRST - FCP7 doesn't handle it through L&T at all. Oh well, L&T sucked for AVCHD anyway. Clipwrap rewraps it fine.

CS6 takes it like a champ. Might show the tiniest bit more banding vs. 1080p24 (or I might just be convincing myself of this since it's what I was expecting). Sound works normally. Monitoring via my DP6 (HDMI) worked fine.

So cliff notes: yay, I bought one more framerate I can use.
 
Hey Mcbob,
Your message title says 1080p/60, but the body of the message says 1080i/60. Did you purchase the new firmware upgrade (1080p/60p) from Panasonic?
 
To clarify, this long-time client usually asks for 1080i60, and I offered and delivered this project in 1080p60 since I recently bought that capability.
 
Well thanks for posting, your the first to address the upgrade please keep us across your experiences or if you have a bit of free time perhaps a comparison video :-)
 
yep, the raw footage from the cam would be gr8! did u try the AF with it? just wonder if its any better, then with 25/30p
 
Is the 1980/60P just slow motion with an audio option? Or do we get double 30P frames @ 1980P at normal motion? I'm curious why I would need this option.
 
It's neither. It's individual frames at 1080p, with sound. Think of it as a higher-res 720/60p. It's like as if you took 1080/60i but instead of nasty interlaced, each frame is a full progressive frame.

Why would you need it? Well, yeah, if you have to ask, you probably don't need it; mainly it's for shooting higher-res "live" footage. The next iteration of TV (after HDTV) will almost certainly include "live" 1080/60p, so the cameras are getting ready for it...
 
Barry_Green said:
It's neither. It's individual frames at 1080p, with sound. Think of it as a higher-res 720/60p. It's like as if you took 1080/60i but instead of nasty interlaced, each frame is a full progressive frame. Why would you need it?...
Click to expand...

Cheers, Barry. I think one very compelling reason for 1080/60P (that I haven't seen mentioned on here) is "post-production time warping." If you're doing a lot of ramping up/down of frame rates in post-production - with something like Twixtor - the process would likely benefit from those specific shots that are in 60P. That's my main reason for purchasing the upgrade to this latest v1.23 firmware. :) More frames to interpolate from is not going to hurt when you're trying to achieve the best possible results utilizing the tools that you have.
 
Am I missing something? I saw 1080p60 tests from the AF100 like a year ago on Vimeo. What's different in this upgrade, just the bit-rate? Or does it give you a true 60fps not 60fps to a 24fps MTS?
 
Barry_Green said:
It is 60fps-for-60fps, so it's "live" 60p, not slow-mo 60p.
Click to expand...

But if you drag and drop into a FCPX 24p timeline (which auto-conforms it, I think) won't it be 2.5:1 slow-motion footage? If so, would it look different than 60fps shot using VFR?
 
No idea, I don't use FCP, but if it did I would think something was broken... I mean, if you drag 720/60p footage onto a 720/24p timeline, does it turn it into slow motion? It shouldn't, automatically...

If you take 1080/60p PS-mode footage and put it on a 24p timeline and play it at 40% speed (thus turning it into 2.5:1 slow-mo) then it would look (motion-wise) exactly like the VFR 60fps footage.

But that's not what this new mode is for. Again, we've already got slow-mo. The new mode is to give you a better-quality "live" image. It's 1080/60i without the "i". It's 720/60p but 1080 instead of 720.
 
Think of it this way. The new mode has sound (unlike the older S&Q style mode). So the newer mode is just higher frame rate video, not 60p in a 24p
'wrapper' which gives you 2.5 times slo mo. There is actual audio with this video, it can be used as is (well you may need to speed it up
in post to work on a Blu Ray, more on this later), without needing to lay down a music track. It can be nice for fast moving things like
sports. I use this mode all the time with my FS100. What it REALLY is useful for, is 'time ramping' as was said earlier in the thread.
As far as I know, you cannot deliver 1080 60P on a Blu Ray at the current time, but you can do the speed ramp thing. It also gives you
flexibility in post, if you shoot in 'S&Q' mode (sorry, I know this is a Sony term), you are 'locked' into a 'special effects' type shot
as you have no sound. If you actually shoot an event at 60p, you can just use it as normal video with sound (by speeding it up in post
so that it can go on a Blu Ray), you can use it as just slo motion video, or you can 'speed ramp it'. This is how you do the 'speed ramp'
in FCP for those asking.

What you need to do in Final Cut Pro (7 not X) is to use Cinema Tools to 'conform' the 60P video to 24P. Now you drop it into a 24P timeline
and you have 2.5 times slow motion video WITH slow motion sound. If you speed it up to 250%, it is normal video with normal sound.....but
you can slow it down to 100% at any point and get the slow motion. So you can have the 'Varicam' (or whichever cam it is that does this)
speed ramping effect, and have actual nat sound from a game or event. It's actually a pretty neat effect....you can also just speed up
the sound (for example to get the sound of a bat hitting a ball) even if the video is in slo motion. You do have to 'nudge' the sound
to match up, but it's still pretty cool to be able to do that. I think it's cool that Panasonic added this option to the AF100.
 
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I'm in 25p pal land - was wondering if with this 'upgrade' I could shoot 1080 50p and be able to conform most of it to 25p and still retain its 'film like' motion cadence (would only need a few bits for slowmo) - would I need to shoot at 1/50 shutter to retain the look of 25p, or do I need to use 1/100?
I presume 1/100 would look better for slowmo but when conformed to 25p would it give me the 'Private Ryan look'?
hope this makes sense.....
 
It makes sense, and yes you can do what you're talking about. Shoot at 50p all the time, and drop every other frame and you will have the film look of 25p; then you can "conform" the 50p to 25p for those moments when you want 2:1 slow motion.

Choosing a shutter that works for both is not really possible, you'll have to choose one or the other or compromise right in the middle. Using a probably 270-degree shutter would be the way I would think to go; it'll give you a crisp filmlike look for when you're using 25p, and the slow-mo will be a little blurrier than normal but I'm sure it'd be an acceptable compromise. You could use a 360-degree shutter, that would provide a 180-degree look for the 25p stuff but really blurry slow-mo when you used the 50p stuff; if you used a 180-degree shutter you'd have super-crisp (1/100 exposure) filmlike stuff, and normal-looking slow-mo, so I don't think that would be the ideal compromise either. I would think you'd be better off splitting it down the middle, going with 270 or maybe erring a bit more towards the 25fps footage, so maybe a 288 degree shutter (which is equivalent to a 144-degree shutter when shooting 25p, which is a reasonable film shutter speed).
 
thanks for the confirmation Barry, would most probably use 1/50 and hold for decent 25p motion blur, just be useful to occasionally have the slow motion option too... tis a shame they're charging for this, would have been a nice little boost for AF101 users & keep it competitive with sonys offering
 
ade4all said:
thanks for the confirmation Barry, would most probably use 1/50 and hold for decent 25p motion blur, just be useful to occasionally have the slow motion option too... tis a shame they're charging for this, would have been a nice little boost for AF101 users & keep it competitive with sonys offering
Click to expand...
I have no problem Panasonic charging for it.. firmware development isn't free. But, if you're looking for VFR, the FS700 is really good.

jeff
 
Very curious to see what this looks like, if anyone who has this upgrade can spare a few min... to maybe shoot: in both modes 25p/50p or whatever country your in
(i) a town centre scene with people and traffic moving about
(ii) a few 90 degree slow pans at different speeds
 
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