Pros and Cons -- GH1 vs Canon 7d

[Rory_B]

Arghhh. Okay, why do I always seem to get drawn into these arguments. I am just trying to help the OP. Things I wanna clarify...

- Talent doesn't come into camera purchasing decisions. No point mentioning things like 'talent is what matters'. It's obvious that it does. It has no bearing on the tech side.

- Performance is always a compromise versus cost. I don't assume the OP would like to go for the non-existing Monstro. I just think for a small price difference he could get the 5D and get a better image.

- All are great cameras

I was mostly teasing with the comment about the monstro. Should have put a smiley face, so I'll apologize on that end.

In the UK the 7D and 5D are closely priced correct?

In most other parts of the world the 7D is vastly cheaper than the 5D. Here in canada a brand new 5D2 costs around 3700 after taxes for body only.

The 7D body only is 2300 and change in comparison after taxes.

So when talking about price, it's very different everywhere, so here in canada that price hit is far more than in the UK.

In the states I think the price difference for body only options is still around 1000.00 Pretty hefty in some peoples minds.

Plus I just think it confuses the issue to bring a camera the OP didn't ask about into the equation.

 

[Isaac_Brody]

I think it's more or less the same pros and cons as in the 5D comparison thread, except that the 7D doesn't quite have the advantage in image quality over the GH1 that the 5D does, and so considering this is the only advantage the 5D has over the GH1 you should only buy the 7D if:

Here you are commenting about a camera you don't own and have never shot with. I was just talking to Kholi and he remarked about how visually he thought the 5D and 7D looked identical, same codec and dynamic range only difference beeing sensor size. Let me repeat what the other mods said, be careful of presenting your opinions as facts.

 

[commanderspike]

I also respect Kholi enormously but to say the 7D and 5D have identical IQ is just not true. Philip Bloom has used both and he also prefers the image from the 5D.

Also there is a reason his pro-work (Greenpeace as one example) is shot on a 5D, not a 7D or GH1. That's not to say those cameras aren't capable of pro work, they are. It is to say that the 5D is the more capable camera of the bunch.

I stand by the 5D > 7D > GH1 image quality statement. It's not just personal opinion, it's based on real specs.

But in the end I agree with some of you on one thing - it's personal opinion which decides what camera to buy isn't it? A camera is personal, your needs are personal. Your budget is personal. I can bang on about the 5D being better all I like but if he really really needs EFS lenses, 24p and he lives in a region where the 7D is much cheaper then the 5D would indeed be the wrong choice. But who I am to assume all that?

For the record, in the UK cameras are vastly overpriced compared to Asia. The benefit of buying a Canon over the GH1 is that Canons are region-agnostic and the 7D is switchable between PAL & NTSC frame rates. So this is another factor to consider, which in the end comes down to personal circumstances.

See, sometimes a blanket 'better' statement doesn't work. I only meant 'better' in terms of image quality. I am not the only one to have my 'better' or 'best' statements taken the wrong way. So many factors influence a camera decision, which is what makes this forum so interesting so often.

I went for the 5D over the 7D because the 5D in Taiwan is £1500 and my girlfriend brought it over and the 7D in the UK is £1600, whilst it cannot match the 5D on image quality or full frame no crop factor. Fact, no? Or just personal opinion? Maybe a bit of both.

 

[Luis Caffesse]

I also respect Kholi enormously but to say the 7D and 5D have identical IQ is just not true.

It may very well be true in video mode, not still mode.
I haven't used them both extensively - so I can't really say.
Have you?

Philip Bloom has used both and he also prefers the image from the 5D.

But he has also said that for video work he believes the 7D is a better choice for him, given the frame rate options.

Also there is a reason his pro-work (Greenpeace as one example) is shot on a 5D, not a 7D or GH1.

Yes, there is, and that reason is mainly that he prefers the 5D to the GH1 apparently... and the 7D had not yet been released.

That's not to say those cameras aren't capable of pro work, they are. It is to say that the 5D is the more capable camera of the bunch.

Not necessarily. Again, 'better' is a matter of context.
The same can be said of "more capable" - all depends what kind of shooting you're doing, and what your priorities are.

I stand by the 5D > 7D > GH1 image quality statement.

I don't think anyone was thinking otherwise - you've made it PAINFULLY clear already.

But who I am to assume all that?

Right - which is why you should make sure to present your opinions as what they are - opinions... and if you don't want to make assumptions, then ask questions.

See, sometimes a blanket 'better' statement doesn't work. I only meant 'better' in terms of image quality.

Even that can't be taken as a blanket statement though - Image quality is going to change on these cams depending on what you're doing. 1080/24... 720p/60... what kind of shooting, what situations? To say one has 'better' image quality is just misleading without any context.

I went for the 5D over the 7D because the 5D in Taiwan is £1500 and my girlfriend brought it over and the 7D in the UK is £1600, whilst it cannot match the 5D on image quality or full frame no crop factor. Fact, no? Or just personal opinion? Maybe a bit of both.

That's great.
I think it's clear that you prefer the 5D.

Now perhaps we can return this thread to the original poster who asked about the GH1 in comparison to the 7D so that he may make his buying decision. Clearly he did not include the 5D in his list for a reason.

So please, let's drop it and keep this thread on topic.
Any further dead horse beating or 5D versus whatever doesn't belong in this thread.
Thanks.

 

[Kholi]

In video mode, the 7D and 5D are nearly indistinguishable. Shallow DOF does not determine IQ (image quality) either. This is from me SHOOTING with both on ONE narrative project and having them mixed on the same timeline. The only difference is 30P > 24P is nowhere near as pretty as straight-up 24p.

7D and 5D stills are worlds apart.

To add to that, the GH-1 isn't THAT far off of either. It's mostly due to compression and the stupid pulldown. If Panasonic does things differently next time, not only will the new camera be just as good IQ wise but the 720/60P will trump.

So in the end, GH-1 vs 7D: Not that far apart. If you can deal with the small odds and ends and want to save money, the GH-1 is still the better video camera.

That's all I has to say about it.

 

[Barry_Green]

Look, there's one thing that cannot be argued: the 7D is $1,000 less than the 5D. They are not in the same price class, and so should not be directly comparable. If the 7D did everything as well as the 5D, the 5D would have no reason to exist.

There is a $1,000 price difference.

A thousand bucks.

While some may totally ignore and dismiss it, it's actually rather substantial. What does that mean in practice? It means you could buy a GH1 body-only from Japan, as well as a 7D, and still have money saved up versus the 5D. Would having both cameras give you some advantages versus only having one? I think we all can pretty much agree that yes, having two is a substantial advantage over having one.

Overall, other than for a couple of people, I really don't see anyone wringing hands over the 7D vs. 5D decision. They are obviously not in competition with each other, they are obviously aimed at different customers, and therefore it's easy to choose.

So -- getting back to the point of THIS thread, which was 7D vs. GH1: give me a few days and I'll be able to answer it, as I'll have both at that time. If you want existing opinions, I think the folks who have both (guys like StephenMick and Luis Caffesse) have said that it's absolutely not a slam dunk, neither is dramatically better than the other, they are priced somewhat comparably (well, considering the 7D+lens package I got is $2,000 and the GH1+lens package was $1500, so the 7D is 33% more expensive). They both do 24p, 30p, and 60p. The Canon has a mildly bigger sensor and a substantially more robust recording format, but aliasing up the ying-yang and its ergonomics/usability are crudely implemented, compared to the GH1. But, with that bigger sensor, the 7D can see a wider-angle field of view when both cameras are using the same lens. As far as usability, the GH1 spanks the 7D left and right in ergonomics. The 7D has a big advantage for Mac users, in that its files are recorded as quicktime files with no pulldown removal necessary. The GH1 can use more types of lenses, including PL-mount lenses. The GH1 has no problem with long recordings, the 7D has a potential showstopper: a heat issue that stops it from recording if it gets too warm, something that can happen even in room-temperature conditions. But the 7D can supply a signal to a remote monitor, which the GH1 can't do. But the GH1 has an articulating LCD screen which makes it far easier to use in far more circumstances than the 7D. And on and on.

Over the next few weeks I'll try to run some tests and quantify what the real differences are between them in terms of image capability.

 

[commanderspike]

It may very well be true in video mode, not still mode. I haven't used them both extensively - so I can't really say.
Have you?

No but I have used the GH1 extensivly and the 5D alongside it, and I know the strengths and weaknesses of both. The 7D isn't that different to the 5D. But you seem to be suggesting I am not qualified to speak.

But he has also said that for video work he believes the 7D is a better choice for him, given the frame rate options.

I know he said that, but it wasn't relevant because I was talking about image quality, not frame rate options. I have already made clear that 5D 30p footage is a pain in the ass to edit together with footage from other cameras. Why do you insist on arguing for argument's sake when I am just trying to contribute my knowledge to the forum in a constructive way?

Not necessarily. Again, 'better' is a matter of context.
The same can be said of "more capable" - all depends what kind of shooting you're doing, and what your priorities are.

I have already put my 'better' in the context of image quality. To narrow it down any further would just be anal.

I don't think anyone was thinking otherwise - you've made it PAINFULLY clear already.

So if you agreed all along on the 5D > 7D > GH1 issue why start this argue with me? It shows a lack of respect and a need to protect the status quo of the establishment.

Right - which is why you should make sure to present your opinions as what they are - opinions... and if you don't want to make assumptions, then ask questions.

I know the difference between opinions and technical facts. I don't need to preface every comment on the 5D versus 7D as an opinion. Is the fact that the 5D has a full frame sensor a fact or an opinion? Is the fact that the GH1 is a great hybrid of video and stills compared to the 5D and 7D a fact or opinion?

Even that can't be taken as a blanket statement though - Image quality is going to change on these cams depending on what you're doing. 1080/24... 720p/60... what kind of shooting, what situations? To say one has 'better' image quality is just misleading without any context.

Of course it is. The 7D's image quality in 60p mode is much better than the 5D's 60p mode... oh... wait. So your point is?

That's great.
I think it's clear that you prefer the 5D.

Why suck me into this argument? Because I prefer the 5D to the 7D?

Now perhaps we can return this thread to the original poster who asked about the GH1 in comparison to the 7D so that he may make his buying decision. Clearly he did not include the 5D in his list for a reason.

So please, let's drop it and keep this thread on topic.
Any further dead horse beating or 5D versus whatever doesn't belong in this thread.
Thanks.

I will gladly drop it and talk about the cameras but seemingly every time I do, a mod steps in to close the thread!! I can be positive about the GH1, 5D and 7D on a number of issues, but as soon as any negativity is raised, it's seen as 'baiting' those who own said camera. Well I think this rather limits our discussion possibilities, and that's wrong.

 

[commanderspike]

In video mode, the 7D and 5D are nearly indistinguishable. Shallow DOF does not determine IQ (image quality) either. This is from me SHOOTING with both on ONE narrative project and having them mixed on the same timeline. The only difference is 30P > 24P is nowhere near as pretty as straight-up 24p.

7D and 5D stills are worlds apart.

To add to that, the GH-1 isn't THAT far off of either. It's mostly due to compression and the stupid pulldown. If Panasonic does things differently next time, not only will the new camera be just as good IQ wise but the 720/60P will trump.

So in the end, GH-1 vs 7D: Not that far apart. If you can deal with the small odds and ends and want to save money, the GH-1 is still the better video camera.

That's all I has to say about it.

Well said, but I have seen a number of people say that the 5D has the better image especially at high ISOs. The 7D also has an overheating issue.

I think the OP should think carefully about the GH1 versus 7D decision. I'd go for the GH1 personally. It was my original choice over the 5D until I found out how the codec and banding limited shooting possibilities and the crop factor limited my lenses.

 

[Rory_B]

The point is this thread is not about the 5D and it's been derailed over talking about the 5D. It's about the 7D vs GH1.

 

[Luis Caffesse]

I'll gladly respond to all your points via PM if you like - but I refuse to allow this thread to devolve any further.

Let's get back to the topic at hand - which is a discussion of the GH1 and 7D.
Thanks.

 

[commanderspike]

One thing that hasn't been mentioned is that the GH1 will shoot without the 12 min time limit on clips and doesn't have a overheating problem, so if the OP plans to shoot events then the GH1 is the better choice by far.

Narrative film making with a number of challenging shooting conditions, then the 7D is the better bet because it has the better image quality in a greater number of situations. This is because the codec has a higher bit rate, it has a more powerful image processing unit (both the GH1 and 7D use dual core CPUs but the 7D's is faster and allows live HDMI out, the GH1's doesn't manage this). I guess this is why it is so marginal on heat, and the weather sealed body probably doesn't help in this regard.

All compromises, all personal.

 

[Stephen Mick]

Having shot with both the 5D and the 7D, my findings back up Kholi's, the image quality of both of them in video mode is essentially identical. I had the same shot from a 5D and a 7D, with the same framing and same frame rate (30p) on a timeline and could not tell any difference. Nor could the other professional in the room with me.

Now onto the OP's question…

If your needs involve acquisition at 1080/24p, the 7D is the better choice, I believe. The picture is head and shoulders above the GH1 in this mode, to my eye. The GH1 is really good, but I think the 7D is great. And in this mode, heat seems to be less of a problem, as is aliasing.

If you're primarily shooting for 720p, or doing a lot of slow-mo (60p to 24p), I'd say the GH1 is the best choice. Most people looking for a camera like this are shooting action-sports, traveling a lot and have weight and ergonomics as a key factor. In that scenario, I'd go with the GH1. The 7D ergs aren't that bad to me, but the GH1 is smaller and lighter than the 7D.

Either way, evaluate your needs and make the right decision based on experience, while weighing the thoughts of those who've actually used the cameras.

 

[commanderspike]

Having shot with both the 5D and the 7D, my findings back up Kholi's, the image quality of both of them in video mode is essentially identical. I had the same shot from a 5D and a 7D, with the same framing and same frame rate (30p) on a timeline and could not tell any difference. Nor could the other professional in the room with me.

Now onto the OP's question…

If your needs involve acquisition at 1080/24p, the 7D is the better choice, I believe. The picture is head and shoulders above the GH1 in this mode, to my eye. The GH1 is really good, but I think the 7D is great. And in this mode, heat seems to be less of a problem, as is aliasing.

If you're primarily shooting for 720p, or doing a lot of slow-mo (60p to 24p), I'd say the GH1 is the best choice. Most people looking for a camera like this are shooting action-sports, traveling a lot and have weight and ergonomics as a key factor. In that scenario, I'd go with the GH1. The 7D ergs aren't that bad to me, but the GH1 is smaller and lighter than the 7D.

Either way, evaluate your needs and make the right decision based on experience, while weighing the thoughts of those who've actually used the cameras.

I agree with all that. Well put.

Although interested to see how the 7D performs at high ISOs, against the GH1 and 5D.

 

[Luis Caffesse]

I've been looking around to see if there are any lists that show the comparisons in terms of whats good and bad of both products but I haven't been able to find any. Anyone here can shed some light on this?

Mike

Alright - having wrapped up another day of production with the 7D, I think I finally have some time to jot down some thoughts....

Honestly, I expected to get the 7D and be blow away ... but like Barry said, it's by no means a slam dunk between these two cameras. I've been agonizing over the decision of which camera to keep for the past week or so - and in the end it all depends on what is most important to you (like Stephen said above).

First off, as far as image quality, after some side by side testing I think the 1080/24 mode of the 7D looks much better to me. It seems less susceptible to banding, much more organic, less obviously compressed, I've never seen any 'mud' or breaking up of the codec - though there is still some noise in the lower exposed areas, but it's not anything that bothers me (the GH1, and pretty much any other digital camera, also exhibit some noise in low light areas).

Now, as you've probably read already, the 720/60p mode on the 7D can't really be compared as on par to the GH1. Whereas the GH1 60p footage is incredibly clean and makes for great slomo footage, the 7D 60p footage seems very prone to artifacting (which I'm not really seeing in the 1080 mode).

So, as far as image quality goes - the long and short to me is that the 7D seems much better in the 1080p/24 mode, and the GH1 really shines at 720P/60.

I'm finally starting to lean towards the 7D, after shooting with it for a while - only because while perfectly smooth slomo is nice.... I can't ignore the fact that the vast majority of what I shoot needs to be at 24fps. And in that case, the 7D wins out for me.

Of course, on top of image quality there are a lot of other concerns - weight and size are big ones for me... as is the articulating LCD screen of the GH1. So ergonomically I have to hand it to the GH1. If I had my way, I'd have the 7D image in the GH1 body... but with the Canon EOS mount and the Canon codec, which seems to hold up better overall.

Of course that's probably not going to happen anytime soon.



Point is - I don't think it's easy to say which camera is "better" between these two - it's all going to depend on what you're looking for, and what kind of shooting you need to do.

Best thing you could do is get your hands on them and do some shooting -
One thing I will tell you is the the footage from both these cams looks MUCH better coming straight off the cards than you'll ever see on any Vimeo samples posted.

 

[Kellar42]

Yes, I'm also very interested in tests of the 7D vs GH1, and keeping the 5D out of just one of these conversations. It's price range makes it a different beast for many of us.

So far I like my GH1 and am curious if the 7D would be a huge leap. From what I'm hearing, and the best online 7D video I've seen vs the best online GH1 videos, maybe it won't be as huge as I thought when it was announced. But very curious to hear from those whom have both. Perhaps they compliment one another.

 

[PappasArts]

Michael Pappas
http://www.pbase.com/Arrfilms
Arrfilms@hotmail.com
http://www.PappasArts.com


.

 

[Park Edwards]

pappas ftw

 

[BhambuNath]

Michael Pappas
http://www.pbase.com/Arrfilms
Arrfilms@hotmail.com
http://www.PappasArts.com


.

Very well put ;-)

 

[J Davis]

A while back I wrote this in the thread '7D vs GH1 comparison video please?'

"Whats great about the GH1 cannot be appreciated by comparing footage because the 7D has a much better codec.

Its the fact that you don't have to deal with an internal mirror so you can use PL mount cine's or inexpensive quality canon FD lenses which the 7D can't. Its the fact that you can get better res for monitoring off your GH1's LCD than the 7D can give with HDMI out (480p), you have an electronic viewfinder that can show you an image adjusted by ISO (the 7D has no elec. view finder) very useful in some situations, and you can bend the LCD in anyway you want instead of your neck AND its cheaper.

Other than that they are the same camera and 7 months from now will most likely have the same resale value."

Today my opinion has not really shifted much. I would add that the 7D has the EOS utility that allows a laptop to be used as an external monitor which is good for pulling focus around. The GH1 has live histograms and an accurate exposure level meter which the 7D doesn't. Right now I'm using Kholi's technique which is to take a still, go into playback mode and check the histos for clipping and doing this for important shots. GH1 was much easier to use for on-the-fly exposure judgement. I'm sure I'll get better with the 7D as I get more familiar with its LCD but it's still a pain in the ass compared to the GH1.

On board sound on both cam's really sucks because of AGC (auto gain control) but I use it only for sync and the internal mic on the 7D is better placed as it is on the front pointing forward. The GH1's internal mic is part of the moving flash unit and it points vertically upwards at the operators nostrils. When the flash unit is popped up the GH1's mic points backwards towards the operator's throat. Real genius design there. I also find the 7D bigger and bulkier than the GH1. The GH1 is much smaller and has a better 'stealth' factor.

 

[kippard]

What is the 7D audio like? Can use external mic? Thanks for all the info.