Projectors for HD Digital Cinema

Hi Ernesto

I'm not sure about the RS1 because here in Europe we have the HD1. But I believe they are the same.

Here is a test of the RS1 at projector central The resolution of the projector is 1920 x 1080. And the picture is gorgeous. It can't get any better than this. Trust me.



@ seunosewa

well ahem ...

a 3 meter wide screen in 16:9 is about 5 square meters
a 4 meter wide screen in 16:9 is about 9 square meters

Not that significant?

Its almost double the size which means you need almost double the light output from the projector. And believe me, it is significant. With a AE2000 you go: "Where is the picture" while with the HD1 you go: "Woah, that's bright."


But you have to see it by yourself. I can only deliver words.

By the way: In two weeks time I have a little film festival in my hometown with - of course - the HD1. I'll post some pictures.

Peter
 
What I don't understand is why you absolutely need a 4m screen for a small theatre. The difference in terms of projector strength required is significant, but the difference in terms of resulting in a better viewing experience is zero. That's what I'm suggesting. The 33% size improvement not worth paying an extra $3000 for.

And, um, I noticed something. The DLA-RS1 is a 700 lumen projector. 700 lumens. That's like, much less than the 2500 lumens of a typical multimedia projector. Are you sure about what you're saying? Perhaps the JVC has better settings out of box and you didn't know how to tweak the brighter projectors for maximum light output? I'm not saying it's a bad projector, but it's certainly not a bright projector.
 
seunosewa

Like I said in a post a little bit above: On paper the HD1 is not so great but on screen it's perfect. And a 2500 Lumen Multimedia nice enough for Powerpoint Projector does project a lot of light but with a lousy contrast. You'll never have blacks on screen just greys.

And trust me. It is a bright projector. The HD1 is definetely brighter then the other projectors mentioned here. The problem is, if you carefully tweak a projector for film the competitors of the HD1 will end up with about 350-400 lumen. I don't go to detail here, I've seen, I've done it and you can google it for yourself. The HD1 will put 700 lumen with a contrast of 15000:1 on the screen. That is 11 footcandles and matches the THX standard for digital cinema. The picture is even better than what you see in most cinemas. And it is the only projector out there (for digital cinema not for multimedia like powerpoint etc.) that performs on a 4 meter wide screen. Period.

It's a little bit like with the HVX200. It's not the pixel count, it's the performance.

The problem with numbers like 2500 lumen is that they mean the absolute maximum light output available. There is no quality on screen just brightness. If you tweak a 2500 Lumen projector you'll end up with maybe 1000 lumen and a contrast of 400:1.

Now, trust me on this: 700 Lumen with a contrast of 15000:1 will blow you away, while 1000 lumen on 400:1 will leave you with an audience that wants it's money back.

So; Bottom line. On a 9 square meter screen, the only projector that performs is the JVC DLA-HD1 aka JVC DLA-RS1. And if you want to go even bigger than that, you enter the realm of the the 20k$+ projectors.


This is my last post on this topic: But you might want to read this


And by the way: 9 square meters compared to 5 square meters is 80% more not just 33%.

Peter
 
It's all about replicating and improving on what you get in the cinema. This has to be done in the dark.

Augenblick is dead on with the contrast brightness comparison.

Projector central has a light (nits) calculator for each projector and screen size/type. This should be your starting point.
 
seunosewa said:
If so, then what happens when you tweak a 700 lumen projector? :huh:
Click to expand...

It depends on how close that projector is to perfect calibration at 700 lumens.

The RS1 is very close to perfect calibration out of the box at 700 lumens.
 
I've been playing with my new 2500 lumen Dell 1609WX and I find that I get the best looking results when I use very bright settings - brightness at the default value, contrast increased to near maximum, lamp saving mode off, color mode set to 'maximize brightness at the expense of color fidelity', etc. The result is very bright but sometimes not very saturated. I prefer saturated colors, so I just increase color saturation on the VLC media player. The result is visually optimal for that projector, yet very bright. There's no way a 700 lumen projector can be brighter.

I understand that the HD1 has excellent contrast, but my little Dell projector is definitely brighter. Let's not forget that the HD1 is a home cinema projector. Home cinema projectors are known for their contrast ratios and not brightness. Plus, you could buy seven 1609WX projectors for the price of the HD1. Plus, there are some bright, more affordable projectors out there with better contrast than the Dell.

So what am I saying? My experience suggests that a 2500 lumen projector should not lose brightness or contrast when tweaked. When tweaking, remember that you're trying to get a good-looking image, not to measure up to some arbitrary color standard. Good looking images are color balanced, contrasty, saturated, and visible.
 
@ Ernesto
Do yourself a favour and get the RS1. You'll never regret it.

@ ROne
Thanks for the backup

@ seunosewa
Quote: "Plus, you could buy seven 1609WX projectors for the price of the HD1."
:beer: That one really made my day.

I think you're a very funny guy. You come up with a cheesy 800$ business projector, that is perfectly fit for Powerpoint on large screens in meeting rooms, and try to tell me it's a good projector for "digital cinema". Because that's what this whole thread is all about; digital cinema.
You're projector is a DLP business projector with a slow turning colorwheel. That means first of all it produces HEAVY RAINBOW ARTIFACTS.
Business projectors are built to be bright, they're not built for video. I give you credit for brightness. But brightness doesn't go a long way. It's the whole nine yards that count.
The Dell has not even native HD resolution, so if you pop in a BluRay Disc and play it (if you can play it that is, because the Dell does not support 24p, at least to my knowledge) you loose over 50% of resolution compared to the original signal coming from BluRay.
Plus the Dell has a colorspace that is far off anything that comes even close to a decent gamma curve, so you'll never have accurete colors. Bright and saturated colors yes, but not accurate. No matter how much you tweak the VLC, which by the way is the most horrible way to treat a videosignal.
There is a THX picture calibration tool on DVD's like StarWars. That is a starting point of how to calibrate a projector. By eye it's nearly impossible.
Next point: Black level. The Dell has a black level of 1.3. That means that the opening sequence from StarWars an the Dell looks like: "Thousends of Stars on a dark grey background, Title Card: Star Wars Episode ..." Hey wait a minute. Dark Grey background. Shouldn't that be black. Yeah... well.
The Dell has a Zoom factor of 1.1 which means you can't put the projector in the back of the audience.


Bottom line. A 4 meter screen is the realm of the HD1.
Below 4 meters there is the HD100, the VW-40, the VW-60 or the AE2000, maybe a Marantz 12 or 13 if you are insensitive to the DLP RGB rainbow effect. There are some BenQ's and some Sanyos which have had good reviews and so on.

Above 4 meters there are only high dollar digital cinema projectors. Mostly SXRD's and DLA,'s. Even DLP's but 3-Chip models.
No Dell, I repeat: NO DELL Projector has even come close to the realm of digital cinema. They are built for business nerds to show other business nerds nerdy yet very bright powerpoint presentations. And on weekends they watch a DVD or two on it and dream of a real projector.
No offense meant.

___________________________________________

"Seven 1609WX projectors for the price of the HD1 ..."
Well, you know you could also buy seven Dodge Neons for the price of a Porsche ... :beer:
___________________________________________


Over and out.

Peter
 
I'm not recommending the Dell projector for movie projection. The Dell is a horrible movie projector!! The blacks are dark grey, the color wheel is only 2 speed, it has limited resolution, et cetera.

But it is undoubtedly much brighter than the HD1, even after being tweaked for the best looking image. That is all I said. I bought it because it's so bright, and so cheap. But I've figured out how to tweak it for movie.

I might consider the HD1 for home use, but for that purpose it's too expensive. But I would hesitate to buy that projector for a big theatre, because of its lack of brightness. None of the independent reviews you've linked to so far suggest otherwise.

The HD1 is a niche projector; it's not necessarily expensive because it's that good; it's expensive because people aren't buying it in sufficient quantities to offset the cost of R & D. Example: why is the HV20 so cheap? Volume.

The alternative is not the Dell; the alternative is the wide variety of bright home theatre projectors that are available in the market right now for under $2500. For example, the Panasonic AE series of 3LCD projectors.

So don't buy the HD1 unless you can replicate the results of augenblicks projector brightness experiment. You don't want a projector that only works in small rooms, with black walls, at midnight. Cheers and good luck! :beer:

More tips on tweaking powerpoint projectors for video watching:
- The contrast tip I posted earlier is for old projectors (not the Dell).
- If you can't see the details in the dark parts of your movie, increase the gamma setting in your software video player until you can. Then increase saturation slightly to compensate for the resulting desaturation.
 
It's funny how you turn the facts so they fit your meaning. The AE2000 is not nearly as bright as the HD1. That goes for all the projectors I mentioned. But hey, everyone is entitled to have an opinion.

The HD1 is definitely not a projector for small rooms. It runs up to it's full potential on a 4 meter wide screen and it is in use in many color correction facilities in Hollywood. Not many projectors out there perform on that size. Under 4 meter it's almost too bright. And what do you mean by black walls at midnight. No projector can project Black. The blackest black on your screen is just as black as the screen itself. So the darker the environment the better of course. In a lit room any projector will fail to deliver more than 200:1 contrast. Even the brightest ones. It's physically impossible.

And if you try to tell my now that a very very bright projector can produce a quality picture - not a bright picture, a quality picture - on a big screen in a lit room, then I don't have an answer to that.

All your arguments just show that you mainly go by the shiny advertised numbers on colorfull brochures. I bet you never had the chance to see a DLA or an SXRD projector perform. Trust me it'll leave you speechless.

Of course the HD1 is expensive. Why? Because it's worth it. And there is a little bit more R&D to the HD1 than to a HV20. You know Dodge vs. Porsche. They both drive 90Mph ...

By the way. I used the HD1 on a 4.5 meter wide screen in front of 150 people. It performed perfectly out of the box.

You can of course produce brighter pictures with other projectors. That is a fact. But you'll never have the quality, contrast, motion-quality, the look and feel of filmlike images with one of these bright and shiny DLP or LCD projectors out there, when you compare them with an HD1 side by side on a 4 meter wide screen. That is a fact too.

And now please do yourself a favour and go out to see a DLA or an SXRD projector perform, before posting again.

The discussion runs very dry here. You put absolute brightness over quality. That doesn't work. And it's not what Ernesto wants. He wants a powerful projector that makes a beautiful picture.

So again. Even if I sound a little nerdy. On a 4 meter wide screen - and that is all I'm saying - there is no projector out there, not one, that comes close to the HD1 when used as a digital cinema projector. And that is all this thread was ever about.

Peter
 
And now please do yourself a favour and go out to see a DLA or an SXRD projector perform
Click to expand...
Ok, I will try. Not many of those in my continent, though, so I usually rely on reviews.
 
Thankyou all guys, next friday 8th, I'm going (invited) to a showroom where I'm going to see several Panny projectors.

Among them is goin to be the Panasonic 2000, so I'll let you know what I see there.

Again, thanks.
 
erdiaz said:
Thankyou all guys, next friday 8th, I'm going (invited) to a showroom where I'm going to see several Panny projectors.

Among them is goin to be the Panasonic 2000, so I'll let you know what I see there.

Again, thanks.
Click to expand...

Great, the best panasonic presets are Cinema1 and Colour1 - just in case they have them set on silly settings!
 
oh! boy... I'm just arriving from Panasonic's conference about this projectors: DLP PT-DZ12000U and PT-AE2000, here at Bogota (Colombia)

What can I say?

No question, the best I have never seen.

For the first time I saw one of my digital short features in a large (5 X 3 mtrs) screen in all it's beauty!!!

I was petrified... what a quality in image projection brightness and contrast, you have to see it!!!!

I'm just tryning to digest all the info.

If you can, see those projectors. period.
 
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I've noticed something interesting:
The PT-DZ2000U, is a 12,000 ANSI lumen projector
And the PT-AE200U is a 1500 lumen projector.
 
seunosewa said:
I've noticed something interesting:
The PT-DZ2000U, is a 12,000 ANSI lumen projector
And the PT-AE200U is a 1500 lumen projector.
Click to expand...

I really don't know.

I only see working the PT-DZ 12000 U and the PT-AE 2000 U.

My comment is about those.

For the PT-DZ 12000 U see this (the 10000 lumens little brother, everything else is the same):
http://www.panasonic.com/business/projectors/d10000-series/index.asp

For the PT-AE 2000 U see this (1500 lumens):
http://www.panasonic.com/business/projectors/ae2000/index.asp
 
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I was just trying to point out that they are both brighter than the HD1/RS1. They seem like nice projectors.
 
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