Progressive Scan
- Thread starter Rob
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Re: Progressive Scan
That depends on the TV. Some do, some don't. The Toshiba flat-screens don't. HDTVs will.
That depends on the TV. Some do, some don't. The Toshiba flat-screens don't. HDTVs will.
Barry_Green
Moderator
Re: Progressive Scan
Component's been around a lot longer than progressive-scan video, so there's no direct relationship between the two.
Component's been around a lot longer than progressive-scan video, so there's no direct relationship between the two.
Re: Progressive Scan
Does yr DV player have component out? Consumer players don't. DV streams are allways interlaced fields even with progressive footage, so there would be no problem. Some Displays can be set to "progressive" for interlaced footage because they have an internal deinterlacers. All flatscreens and non CRT projector show the images in frame mode (progressive) and contain additionally to the deinterlacer mostly a rescaler too.
Does yr DV player have component out? Consumer players don't. DV streams are allways interlaced fields even with progressive footage, so there would be no problem. Some Displays can be set to "progressive" for interlaced footage because they have an internal deinterlacers. All flatscreens and non CRT projector show the images in frame mode (progressive) and contain additionally to the deinterlacer mostly a rescaler too.
Re: Progressive Scan
I think he might have dropped the last "D" from "DVD player." Yes? At least that would make more sense.
Not all flatscreen TVs show a progressive image (standard def-only TV's don't), nor do all projection TVs (like most RPTVs before the commercial advent of HDTV).
Also, "frame" mode, as used within the Canon and Panasonic lexicons, isn't true progressive; it's an interpolated interlaced mode. But that might not be what you were referring to there.
I think he might have dropped the last "D" from "DVD player." Yes? At least that would make more sense.
Not all flatscreen TVs show a progressive image (standard def-only TV's don't), nor do all projection TVs (like most RPTVs before the commercial advent of HDTV).
Also, "frame" mode, as used within the Canon and Panasonic lexicons, isn't true progressive; it's an interpolated interlaced mode. But that might not be what you were referring to there.
Re: Progressive Scan
David, like I already mailed, ALL non CRT TV displays, direct view, RPTV, front projection (LCD,DLP,Plasma,LCOS...except some very small portable LCD screens ) display video in progressive mode (so have and internal deinterlacer and often rescaler). The pseudo progressive modes (frame mode) use pixel interpolation but is not an " interpolated interlaced mode". The frames are bild-up out of a single time window, not two fields with time difference, so it is real progressive footage. Whether or not the spatial content comes from interpolation or other processing techniques is not relevant.
MichaelP, you don't need a progressive encoded content, you just need a DVD player with internal (preferably with film mode) deinterlacer or a flatscreen TV, or one of the many "digital" high-end CRT TV's , to see video in progressive mode.
David, like I already mailed, ALL non CRT TV displays, direct view, RPTV, front projection (LCD,DLP,Plasma,LCOS...except some very small portable LCD screens ) display video in progressive mode (so have and internal deinterlacer and often rescaler). The pseudo progressive modes (frame mode) use pixel interpolation but is not an " interpolated interlaced mode". The frames are bild-up out of a single time window, not two fields with time difference, so it is real progressive footage. Whether or not the spatial content comes from interpolation or other processing techniques is not relevant.
MichaelP, you don't need a progressive encoded content, you just need a DVD player with internal (preferably with film mode) deinterlacer or a flatscreen TV, or one of the many "digital" high-end CRT TV's , to see video in progressive mode.
Re: Progressive Scan
"The pseudo progressive modes (frame mode) use pixel interpolation but is not an " interpolated interlaced mode". The frames are bild-up out of a single time window, not two fields with time difference, so it is real progressive footage. Whether or not the spatial content comes from interpolation or other processing techniques is not relevant. "
hmmmm.. i see what your saying here, but by that method , i could stick a buch of french fries in a jello mold, and call it french fry flavored jello.
If the origins and processing of the image have no bearing on what the final product is called as long as the final product resembles/ or is in the form of what you wan it to be, then for that matter, a 35mm SLR is an interlaced video camera.
..even though the end result may be a display of one particular moment in time, the term "progressive" is not indicative of the how the final display of the image will be unless you are talking about the display that will be showing it. becuase you could convert , or play the image in any number of imaginative ways.. rather the term is indicative of the original method of capture. so to call something "progressive" which in fact has only been modified to able to be displayed progressively in the end is a no no.. which is why the terms "frame mode" and movie mode" and such were developed. becasue manufacturing and marketing companies do not like to get sued for misrepresentaion, and falsifying promotional information. ..basically its what is commonly reffered to as "lying".
this is however irrelevant to the diplays that we view the content on.. if you play a "movie mode" or "frame mode" on a progressive display, and the display shows it progressivly, then you are viewing a progressive image, but you are not viewing progressive footage .. your just viewing altered interlaced footage progressivley.
... i know this sounds stupid because im saying that the progressive display is not displaying progressive material even though the image is progressive.. what it boils down to is this:
..painting the words "indy car" on the side of a dodge spirit and sticking it on an indy track dosent make it an indy car ..any more than interpolating or blending or whatever you like to some interlaced footage and sticking it on a progressive display makes the footage actually progressive.
again this is because the term "progressive" indicates how the footage originated, and not what you've made of it... and again with displays its only reffereing to how your diplaying content.. regardless of its origins.. so yes, the interlaced footage has been modified to be progressivly displayed.
blah blah .. so in essence what micheal p. said is correct . unless your watching footage that was captured progressivley and kept progressive all the way to your eyes.. your not really watching progressive footage.
"The pseudo progressive modes (frame mode) use pixel interpolation but is not an " interpolated interlaced mode". The frames are bild-up out of a single time window, not two fields with time difference, so it is real progressive footage. Whether or not the spatial content comes from interpolation or other processing techniques is not relevant. "
hmmmm.. i see what your saying here, but by that method , i could stick a buch of french fries in a jello mold, and call it french fry flavored jello.
If the origins and processing of the image have no bearing on what the final product is called as long as the final product resembles/ or is in the form of what you wan it to be, then for that matter, a 35mm SLR is an interlaced video camera.
..even though the end result may be a display of one particular moment in time, the term "progressive" is not indicative of the how the final display of the image will be unless you are talking about the display that will be showing it. becuase you could convert , or play the image in any number of imaginative ways.. rather the term is indicative of the original method of capture. so to call something "progressive" which in fact has only been modified to able to be displayed progressively in the end is a no no.. which is why the terms "frame mode" and movie mode" and such were developed. becasue manufacturing and marketing companies do not like to get sued for misrepresentaion, and falsifying promotional information. ..basically its what is commonly reffered to as "lying".
this is however irrelevant to the diplays that we view the content on.. if you play a "movie mode" or "frame mode" on a progressive display, and the display shows it progressivly, then you are viewing a progressive image, but you are not viewing progressive footage .. your just viewing altered interlaced footage progressivley.
... i know this sounds stupid because im saying that the progressive display is not displaying progressive material even though the image is progressive.. what it boils down to is this:
..painting the words "indy car" on the side of a dodge spirit and sticking it on an indy track dosent make it an indy car ..any more than interpolating or blending or whatever you like to some interlaced footage and sticking it on a progressive display makes the footage actually progressive.
again this is because the term "progressive" indicates how the footage originated, and not what you've made of it... and again with displays its only reffereing to how your diplaying content.. regardless of its origins.. so yes, the interlaced footage has been modified to be progressivly displayed.
blah blah .. so in essence what micheal p. said is correct . unless your watching footage that was captured progressivley and kept progressive all the way to your eyes.. your not really watching progressive footage.
Re: Progressive Scan
What can I say, Andre? In addition to what IAL says above (if "Frame" mode were "true progressive," it would be called . . . "progressive"), I've been around RPTV and FPTV since the '80s, and I've seen plenty of interlaced. You might be able to say NOW that the new models on the market all have the capability of displaying progressive (this, I can't say for sure), but it wasn't true even six years ago.
What can I say, Andre? In addition to what IAL says above (if "Frame" mode were "true progressive," it would be called . . . "progressive"), I've been around RPTV and FPTV since the '80s, and I've seen plenty of interlaced. You might be able to say NOW that the new models on the market all have the capability of displaying progressive (this, I can't say for sure), but it wasn't true even six years ago.
Re: Progressive Scan
David, as you certainly know in the beginning of the 80's there was nothing else the 3 tube CRT projectors, all interlaced. However, since non-CRT projectors and direct view displays entered the market (early 80's) , all pixel driving architectures (row/colomn drivers) are based on a progressive datastream (except very small/cheap ones avoiding video memory cost). So those displays are not only "capable" of progressive displaying, they even don't have an interlace imaging mode, so they only have progressive imaging!
Iamloser, for those who think that "real" progressive pics are not processed, then indeed, progressive pics are those pics captured line by line as to form a frame and outputted as such without any processing. Unfortunately you will never get your ideal progressive footage...all progressive footage is being processed before it gets on yr screen. So "frame mode" is captured as progressive, but instead of processing further on in the datachain, the spatial processing is being done on the CCD readout level in order to avoid extra CCD buffer memory (indeed reducing some vertical resolution, but "thick mode" does this too)
David, as you certainly know in the beginning of the 80's there was nothing else the 3 tube CRT projectors, all interlaced. However, since non-CRT projectors and direct view displays entered the market (early 80's) , all pixel driving architectures (row/colomn drivers) are based on a progressive datastream (except very small/cheap ones avoiding video memory cost). So those displays are not only "capable" of progressive displaying, they even don't have an interlace imaging mode, so they only have progressive imaging!
Iamloser, for those who think that "real" progressive pics are not processed, then indeed, progressive pics are those pics captured line by line as to form a frame and outputted as such without any processing. Unfortunately you will never get your ideal progressive footage...all progressive footage is being processed before it gets on yr screen. So "frame mode" is captured as progressive, but instead of processing further on in the datachain, the spatial processing is being done on the CCD readout level in order to avoid extra CCD buffer memory (indeed reducing some vertical resolution, but "thick mode" does this too)
Re: Progressive Scan
...i dont remember saying that real progressive footage is not processed in any way.
what im trying to make a point of, is that "progressive" footage is footage in which the entire frame was captured line for line, and pixel for pixel at one singular moment in time. (of course we will allow for some irrelevant time drift due to the opreation of the shutter or other mechanical device.. lets not get silly.) ..and that an image, or series of images which was not captured in such a manner, but is instead simply altered to look or play back like it was captured progressivly .. is not progressive.
if you want to take a progressive image, and color correct it, or blur it, or due whatever you want, its still progrssive imagery.. again BECAUSE IT WAS CAPTURED PROGRESSIVLY.. which has nothing to due with what you due to it afterwards or how you want to display it . you can display it interlaced if you like but its still progressive imagery just being displayed interlaced.
but obviously the only way to actually view the progressive footage progressivley, is to keep its output progressive, and view it on a progressive display.
...i dont remember saying that real progressive footage is not processed in any way.
what im trying to make a point of, is that "progressive" footage is footage in which the entire frame was captured line for line, and pixel for pixel at one singular moment in time. (of course we will allow for some irrelevant time drift due to the opreation of the shutter or other mechanical device.. lets not get silly.) ..and that an image, or series of images which was not captured in such a manner, but is instead simply altered to look or play back like it was captured progressivly .. is not progressive.
if you want to take a progressive image, and color correct it, or blur it, or due whatever you want, its still progrssive imagery.. again BECAUSE IT WAS CAPTURED PROGRESSIVLY.. which has nothing to due with what you due to it afterwards or how you want to display it . you can display it interlaced if you like but its still progressive imagery just being displayed interlaced.
but obviously the only way to actually view the progressive footage progressivley, is to keep its output progressive, and view it on a progressive display.
Re: Progressive Scan
Maybe Iamloser you know how pseudo progressive is being captured, but once again the entire frame is captured and stored at a singular point (window) in time. The storing memory is only a field memory for RGB. The vertically offsetted green readout is used twice in combination with R/B to end up with two fields belonging to that specific frame and having spatial differences. This proces results in vertical resolution lowering, very simular to what is used (mostly in more complex vertical filtering modes) for reducing vertical aliasing artifacts in so called "true progressive mode" e.g. when setting to "thick" mode. So all captured pixels are finally being used for generating a frame having a picture content with line by line differences, not based on what is known as line interpollation. I still don't see why this would not be progressive footage...not all progressive images have the highest possible vertical resolution (even on progtessive DVD!), but they still are progressive footage,
Maybe Iamloser you know how pseudo progressive is being captured, but once again the entire frame is captured and stored at a singular point (window) in time. The storing memory is only a field memory for RGB. The vertically offsetted green readout is used twice in combination with R/B to end up with two fields belonging to that specific frame and having spatial differences. This proces results in vertical resolution lowering, very simular to what is used (mostly in more complex vertical filtering modes) for reducing vertical aliasing artifacts in so called "true progressive mode" e.g. when setting to "thick" mode. So all captured pixels are finally being used for generating a frame having a picture content with line by line differences, not based on what is known as line interpollation. I still don't see why this would not be progressive footage...not all progressive images have the highest possible vertical resolution (even on progtessive DVD!), but they still are progressive footage,