Professional Audio Setup

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ministerfortson

Member
In January, we are attempting to make a very high quality independent film that looks borderline big budget. We are looking at audio options right now and I have about $200 to work with. I have two shotgun mics: MXL 991 and Sennheiser K6

1. I can bring my Tascam FW-1082 mixer on set, hook it up to the boom, connect it all to the laptop, and run 150ft. of cable if necessary.
2. I can buy a run and gun audio interface to record to instead of the laptop.

Does anyone have any better options than #1 for recording super high quality audio? #1 won't be much trouble since the film takes place in and around the house. We'd just have to move the board but we'd get very high quality sound.
 
Before you get toasted by everyone, let me say, "professional" is not defined by the equipment. It is defined by the results.

That being said, I have not had much luck or success with using a computer to record on set with. They always tend to get glitchy. I recommend a small portable recorder. I love my H4n, others swear by the Edirol unit. I have commercials on TV now that have used my work with the H4n. Can the FW 1082 output audio through the mains? If it does, with your budget, I would recommend an H4n. Put it at 48k/16, stereo mode. Feed it your L/R mains. Monitor from the H4n.

Having a mixer in front of any portable recorder is so much better that going straight in. You have so much more control over your signal.
 
I agree about your professional comment. I should have made it known that I use to run a music studio, so I'm familiar with how to produce quality sound. I figured people would want to know what equipment I was working with. The FW1082 is a digital mixing board which I use along with Magix music software which also has a mixer with more options, unless I'm misunderstanding your question, but it can output signal to just about anything with an XLR or Firewire port. I could by a XLR to 1/8 converter if needed.

I was thinking the same thing about the laptop getting glitchy. So far I haven't had any trouble recording audio to it 30+ minutes at a time for personal stuff. But things always go wrong at the worst time. I was considering the H4N, but only if absolutely necessary.
 
ministerfortson said:
I should have made it known that I use to run a music studio, so I'm familiar with how to produce quality sound.
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I used to co-own a recording facility many moons ago and let me tell you kind sir that recording music in a studio and recording production sound
are 2 completely different beasts.
As far as actual recording goes about the only thing in common between the two are knowing where the levels should hit. (actually even that is completely different)

In a music studio you're not having to diagnose and solve issues like hvac systems, background noise, clothing noise, voice difference/projection/timber, camera angles
shadows, the list could go on for miles.
I'm not saying it to get on your case, but just as Doc said professional is not defined by a piece of gear. I've been doing this for quite a few years now as my day job
and I still learn on a daily basis. I realize just by asking these questions you're willing to learn but the above statement just made me want to
let you know that was a very naive thing to say.
Once again, I promise you I am not saying it to get on your case or "toast" you, but purely to hopefully make you realize that you better do a lot of studying
about the actual techniques of running production sound before you start doing it.
 
Not sure what kind of music you recorded but I was doing rap exclusively. There were breathing issues, popping, paper rustling, etc. but I do agree with you about it being different. I'm not really new to film, just not working with a huge budget for this project. I won't be dealing much with cameras on this project as I'm leaving that to friends that do this sort of thing, but I'm definitely still open to learning as much as possible. We've done decent sound in the past, but I'm trying to go far above decent in this case because as you mentioned, it's nothing like a studio where we have acoustics design, sound dampening, reverb issues, etc. I certainly don't want to ADR the entire thing in a studio either. Right now I'm trying to figure out the convenience issue mostly because we can take our time to get the quality issue right since the girl's house we are using is our script supervisor. Right now it's looking like the laptop or zoom h4n. Thanks for all the help. Hope I'm not coming off like an asshole or anything, but just wanted to say I'm familiar with film sound, but moreso trying to take it to the next level.
 
The Sennheiser K6 is a powering module - what capsule will you be using? And I have to say that I have not been impressed with any of the MXL mics I've tried.

I have to agree with everyone else who responded. Production sound is HARD. I come from a music background myself. I did a couple of years as a production sound mixer and sometime boom-op - enough to know how difficult it is.

Having the proper tools will make the job easier. A proper boom-pole is lighter, has much greater reach and makes A LOT less noise. A proper shock-mount does a great job mitigating those little bumps. A true entry level production sound recorder like the FR-2, PMD-661 or HD-P2 make life on the set a lot easier. The DR-100 or H4n are passable alternatives, but just be aware of their problems and limitations. A decent mixer makes things even better.

All that being said, you need to develop and use the proper techniques - which are even more important than the equipment you choose. It's not as simple as getting the mic on the end of the boom in the general vicinity of the actors; it takes a lot of skill to do correctly.
 
I'm using the capsule it came with. The one that's listed on Amazon. I've never seen it in any other capsule. I agree with you about MXL it is worlds apart from the Sennheiser, but better than the on cam mic.

Thanks for the input. I actually have one episode of a one hour script under my belt as far as doing bits of everything involved since I wrote it. I've been helping friends on their projects as well just to learn as much as I can. We have a good boom pole based on the suggestions of a few people on another forum I use to use before i found this. I've been watching tons of youtube vid tutorials, reading books and getting as much hands on as possible.

I know you guys keep saying that the equipment isn't as important as the skill and I agree to a degree. An amateur with a Red would probably make a better video than a pro with cell phone camera. I won't say I'm the best sound guy by any means, but I'm pretty good. I think better equipment would definitely help the issue, which is why I asked. I also do the audio visual at Church which again is something entirely different, but my point is most of my personal work revolves around sound.
 
Use what you have and do the best under the given situation (location, shot, blocking, equipment, crew, etc.). Once you factor these in comparing to your music/recording studio experience it makes your studio work look a lot easier. You've mentioned about doing audio visual at church, which might include bits and pieces of video, teleconferencing, sound reinforcement, mutlitrack recording, and any other IT-specific duties. Yes, they are all different, yet share the same terminology for audio (electrical) and sound (acoustical). It's the techniques and application that are entirely polar opposite for each industry and field.

1.) Are you the only person in the sound department on set that is dealing with production sound? It would be remotely difficult to run your computer with an interface all the while booming at the same time. Do all your shooting locations have shore or AC power available 24/7 to you? Accessible within reach?

2.) Getting a separate recording device that's meant for portability would be more ideal in your situation if you were running it alone. Faster and less equipment to worry about.

Watching tutorials, reading books, and other beneficial materials is helpful, but isn't going to improve your sound chops in production sound. You might pick up techniques and a blurred procedure of how things are running behind the scenes. Same deal with how you got into the music studio industry. Overnight success unheard of. Even if you're well-known for your rap music chops in the studio, are you able to tack on a jazz or classical piece with ease? Shouldn't have a problem because you've been mixing for years in the studio, so it should also apply to other genre of music, right?

Your one-episode-hour script compares nothing to what others have done. I know lots of people who does sound for live venues, recording, film/tv work, and gets suckered in by those who think they are good, but are mediocre. Am I going to put a KMS105 on the end of my boompole? It's a hypercardioid, made by Neumann, sound quality is superb, but wrong tool for the wrong job. I want to put a lav on the end of my boompole because that's what all productions use for their talents and hopefully I could get it close enough and not have to worry about the background traffic and noise. The weight is light and should be able to have a PA or even a skilled boom operator getting it close holding it for hours.

Yes, I could probably shoot a better movie with an IPhone 4 than a beginning film student with a Red.
 
Alan H. Chang said:
Use what you have and do the best under the given situation (location, shot, blocking, equipment, crew, etc.). Once you factor these in comparing to your music/recording studio experience it makes your studio work look a lot easier. You've mentioned about doing audio visual at church, which might include bits and pieces of video, teleconferencing, sound reinforcement, mutlitrack recording, and any other IT-specific duties. Yes, they are all different, yet share the same terminology for audio (electrical) and sound (acoustical). It's the techniques and application that are entirely polar opposite for each industry and field.

1.) Are you the only person in the sound department on set that is dealing with production sound? It would be remotely difficult to run your computer with an interface all the while booming at the same time. Do all your shooting locations have shore or AC power available 24/7 to you? Accessible within reach?

2.) Getting a separate recording device that's meant for portability would be more ideal in your situation if you were running it alone. Faster and less equipment to worry about.

Watching tutorials, reading books, and other beneficial materials is helpful, but isn't going to improve your sound chops in production sound. You might pick up techniques and a blurred procedure of how things are running behind the scenes. Same deal with how you got into the music studio industry. Overnight success unheard of. Even if you're well-known for your rap music chops in the studio, are you able to tack on a jazz or classical piece with ease? Shouldn't have a problem because you've been mixing for years in the studio, so it should also apply to other genre of music, right?

Your one-episode-hour script compares nothing to what others have done. I know lots of people who does sound for live venues, recording, film/tv work, and gets suckered in by those who think they are good, but are mediocre. Am I going to put a KMS105 on the end of my boompole? It's a hypercardioid, made by Neumann, sound quality is superb, but wrong tool for the wrong job. I want to put a lav on the end of my boompole because that's what all productions use for their talents and hopefully I could get it close enough and not have to worry about the background traffic and noise. The weight is light and should be able to have a PA or even a skilled boom operator getting it close holding it for hours.

Yes, I could probably shoot a better movie with an IPhone 4 than a beginning film student with a Red.
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Not sure if you actually read what I wrote, but a lot of the stuff that you posted I never said. I'll have AC power with the exception of 1 location, which is why I said I'm definitely considering a zoom h4n. I also never said I only did a 1 episode hour script. That was just one example in which I said I've dabbled in other areas of film production. The reason I said this is because some of the people seem to be writing under the assumption that I'm not familiar with film work or have never done it. So far I've only heard from one person an actual suggestion to my questions. Everyone else seems more to want to inform me about what I already know about film.

1. I want to know about recording while moving around the set since I've never had a need to record audio on anything other than the camera or in a studio.
2. I never said I was an expert. In fact I said I only have some experience doing it, so continuing to repeat what others have already said isn't helpful at all even though you may think it is. I already know it's not the same, and already agreed when the last person said it.

Let me repeat my original question

"Does anyone have any better options than #1 for recording super high quality audio?"

I want to know if there are better options to record the sound. Such as recording to a Zoom would be better than recording to a cassette tape. I've read reviews on some audio devices and the reviews said there was clipping and static in some recording devices when an external mic was used. Maybe I should have been more clear in my question:

What devices will record sound without extra clipping or static when used with an XLR mic? What do people use that is a constantly reliable recording device?
 
ministerfortson said:
Not sure if you actually read what I wrote, but a lot of the stuff that you posted I never said. I'll have AC power with the exception of 1 location, which is why I said I'm definitely considering a zoom h4n. I also never said I only did a 1 episode hour script. That was just one example in which I said I've dabbled in other areas of film production. The reason I said this is because some of the people seem to be writing under the assumption that I'm not familiar with film work or have never done it. So far I've only heard from one person an actual suggestion to my questions. Everyone else seems more to want to inform me about what I already know about film.

1. I want to know about recording while moving around the set since I've never had a need to record audio on anything other than the camera or in a studio.
2. I never said I was an expert. In fact I said I only have some experience doing it, so continuing to repeat what others have already said isn't helpful at all even though you may think it is. I already know it's not the same, and already agreed when the last person said it.

Let me repeat my original question

"Does anyone have any better options than #1 for recording super high quality audio?"

I want to know if there are better options to record the sound. Such as recording to a Zoom would be better than recording to a cassette tape. I've read reviews on some audio devices and the reviews said there was clipping and static in some recording devices when an external mic was used. Maybe I should have been more clear in my question:

What devices will record sound without extra clipping or static when used with an XLR mic? What do people use that is a constantly reliable recording device?
Click to expand...

I'll just say that you've done this line of work more than I have, but your first few into the world of production sound.

Any device will clip or static your recorded sound if not operated properly. If the sound source you are recording is extremely loud, your microphone may clip and distort first. If the sound source isn't loud, then you might have turned up your gain on the mixer/preamp too high. You know the drill, same thing in the studio.

Devices like the Zoom H4n, Tascam DR100, and any other portable recording devices that has an XLR in and phantom power would do. All comes down to a matter of personal taste. Same'o thing with pres, consoles, mics.
 
"In January, we are attempting to make a very high quality independent film that looks borderline big budget. We are looking at audio options right now and I have about $200 to work with."

""Does anyone have any better options than #1 for recording super high quality audio?"

I know money isn't everything, but this budget is pretty unrealistic for much more than a home movie. Riding an audio cart from some distant location is pretty unrealistic as well in my view. If you are a "pretty good sound guy" you should have a clue about the budget issue even if you don't do audio for film. Not trying to be snarky here, but you need a reality check if you want borderline big budget super high quality audio.

If you have a bunch of studio gear that is great, and a shotgun is a small start. You haven't mentioned what other gear you have to achieve your goals, but for a versatile kit for video you might consider the following suggestions which will cover the basics and little more. Also, you might consider recording to cam. This may not be super high quality, but it is much more realistic on a tight budget and for basic audio for video, can work quite well with most decent ENG cams. Obviously, you may have some of this gear. I have included some pricing of basic entry level equipment, not top quality pro gear, which you can discuss further if you move forward. This kit doesn't include any frills, cables, headphones, or any of the little stuff which adds up fast. This kit will cover a single track; inside, outside, and for subjects with reasonable movement.

$100-300 Wind protection for the shotgun you have
$100 Shock mount
$175 Boom pole
$425 Small condenser hyper + baby ball gag
$750 Wireless system + lavalier
$750 Mixer
$350 Sound bag with harness
$700 Bag recorder if you don't record to cam. Less expensive recorders don't work well in a bag.

With regards to your last post about clipping and reliability, field recording is all about control and mic placement. A decent mixer will prevent clipping because they have better limiters. They will also supply the extra gain you need to use marginal cheapo recorders like the zoom. And finally, they provide a better way to ride audio levels = better control. Good, and consistant mic placement is critical, and the boom operator is a skilled person on set. If you want a "constantly reliable recording device" be prepared to spend large; a $300 Zoom isn't even a possibility for that.

Grant
 
An amateur with a Red would probably make a better video than a pro with cell phone camera
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I would have to differ with you on that. The RED, as nice of a camera as it is, would be (and has been - I have seen it) a disaster in the hands of an amateur that didn't know it's limitations or how to get the most out of it. There would be no difference in if they had shot on a DSLR or worse, a Handycam. It all goes back to ability and knowing the equipment you are using. The RED is a waste of money in the hands of someone that doesn't know how to use it properly. It just becomes an expensive status symbol, "Yeah, we shot our latest project on a RED". Doesn't matter the end result, just that it was shot on a RED.

I too, started in the studio, and owned my own full recording studio built from the ground up. And location sound is, as I am echoing the others, very different from tracking in the studio. On set, you are chasing a moving target. The object is to keep the same distance, level, mic angle.........while keeping out of frame, out of lines of action, and getting tangled up in the lighting gear (errrrrrr......grips and their gear always making sound's life miserable, LOL). And if you are a one man show like me, mixing at the same time. For location sound, I have been doing it for years as well now, and I still learn something every set I am on. LOL, I even have a degree (AS) in Audio Engineering, and I am still learning.

So yes, your studio experience will help in the theory aspect, but in practical application, it won't be the same at all. Rules you used in the studio have no application in the field.

Obviously you are free to do what you choose. But realize, that the advice you are being given is coming from guys that fly sound for a living, and do it day in and day out.

And please take this with the respect I am intending: Don't expect great results if you have not been doing sound for a while as a location audio person, no matter what equipment you have or acquire. A good/experienced location engineer with bottom-shelf gear can still out-perform someone with little to no experience and top-of-the-line gear. The skill is not learned overnight or after just a couple of projects. There is a steep learning curve that really never ends, though it starts to taper a little bit after some serious on-set hands-on experience as solely the dedicated audio guy (nothing else).

Every piece of audio gear can "clip" out and be overloaded, if not handled and used properly. And that is the job of the sound engineer to prevent. As a studio engineer, you should know this already. And another aspect of why people are a bit skeptical with your questions and statements. You have to understand, people come in here all the time with claims of being an audio engineer and years of experience, but then they ask questions that negate that said experience level. It's not a problem, not having experience. That will come. But when people are honest (not saying you aren't) it makes everything much more amenable and friendly because we all were there at one time or another.

I am not trying to dampen your enthusiasm for your project, I am (as well as everyone else) trying to help you understand what you are up against, and motivate you to seek education, training and experience to match what your goals are. Without it, I fear you will not achieve what you want for your project.
 
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ministerfortson said:
An amateur with a Red would probably make a better video than a pro with cell phone camera.
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I don't think so - a real pro with an iPhone would make a much better video than an untrained amateur with a Red (which is a pretty cheapo camera anyway and hated by most sound recordists).
 
ministerfortson said:
In January, we are attempting to make a very high quality independent film that looks borderline big budget. We are looking at audio options right now and I have about $200 to work with. I have two shotgun mics: MXL 991 and Sennheiser K6

1. I can bring my Tascam FW-1082 mixer on set, hook it up to the boom, connect it all to the laptop, and run 150ft. of cable if necessary.
2. I can buy a run and gun audio interface to record to instead of the laptop.

Does anyone have any better options than #1 for recording super high quality audio? #1 won't be much trouble since the film takes place in and around the house. We'd just have to move the board but we'd get very high quality sound.
Click to expand...

Could you use your interface and a laptop? Yep, would work IF you're careful. As others pointed out, laptops can be glitchy so using one requires care and confidence monitoring of the recording is a must but it has been done, even for some major features. The Tascam interface runs off of 12V DC so you could rig some high-capacity batteries and gain some freedom from the need for shore power. Use recording software amenable to film/video work such as Nuendo or Audition rather than more music studio oriented software like Cubase. Going this route virtually guarantees you'll need a minimum 2-man sound department, a mixer at the desk operating the mixer and laptop and a boom operator aiming the mic on the boom out where the talent is located. You might even need a third sound utility person to pull cable as the action moves about. (No, a fixed boom doesn't cut it for film except when the subject is seated and stationary as for an interview.)

As pointed out, the K6 is the power module and takes a number of different capsules - cardioid, shotgun, etc. Which do you have? I'm guessing the ME-66 shotgun as that is very common on the K6. If so, this isn't really a very good mic for interior dialog. No shotgun really is, as interference tube mics don't behave very well in environments with the high level of short-term reflections found most untreated interior locations. The MXL isn't so hot in this application either as it's a cardioid and lacks the directivity needed for clean dialog recording. It's also designed as an instrument mic for acoustic guitar or drum overheads, different priorities than recording the spoken word. A good, sensitive hypercardioid (but NOT a hand-held vocalist's mic) is more appropriate for interior dialog work.

$200 is totally unrealisitic for a budget. That won't even get you a proper shock mount and wind protection for your mic. "Super high quality sound" ie, sound comparable to a network episodic show or studio theatrical film? Try a budget comparable to the purchase price of the new Escalade you'll need to carry your kit around (or at least a new Toyota). Can you get good sound for less? Of course. But assuming your desk/interface and laptop are up to the job and you are buying the rest of the kit, you're still looking at a few kilobucks for a complete, truly professional-grade, entry-level kit. For example, the aformentioned hypercardioid mic for interior booming ... an example of a good sounding, entry-level hyper for professional boom work would be the Audio Technica AT4053b, selling at B&H for right at $600. On the other hand, the arguably industry-standard boom mic that a main-stream theatrical or network production mixer would often use would be the Schoeps CMC641 hyper which sells for a shade over $2000 retail.
 
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I'm very confused about your mention of the film having a "huge budget" while you're working with $200. In all truth, if you want professional quality sound and have even a minor budget, what you need to do is hire an experienced, professional sound crew.

If you have $200, invest in Barry Green's Sound DVD as a start. You may think you know about production sound, but that DVD will help a lot, and it's a lot of fun.

And... I'll reiterate... a good production sound professional will do much better with junk than even an experienced studio engineer with great equipment. Skill is everything. And, on set, sound has (sadly) low priority... so the kinds of mistakes, experimentation, and retakes common in the studio are a no-go on the set. Also, I don't know what kind of shape you are in, but booming is hard work, especially if you're not good at it.

To more directly answer your question... the laptop will be a nightmare. Beg, borrow, or steal something designed for production sound work. The H4n is not great for this, but is much better than the laptop.
 
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See it's things like

I'm using the capsule it came with. The one that's listed on Amazon. I've never seen it in any other capsule. I agree with you about MXL it is worlds apart from the Sennheiser, but better than the on cam mic.
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and

What devices will record sound without extra clipping or static when used with an XLR mic? What do people use that is a constantly reliable recording device?
Click to expand...

That make people question your "I have a lot of experience" talk. I'm not saying you don't have any but your asking questions that imply not much experience.

A $200 budget is not a "huge" budget, it's not even a small budget, it's almost a nonexistent budget (for sound). It sounds like BS but the experience not equipment talk is VERY valid. I would as a start find out what mic you actually have. Look at the capsule, the power unit is not significant as long as it power the capsule.

And has not been mentioned, post sound is critical to getting a "professional" sound track. Production is just the first critical step.
 
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