Profeel.com Business Practices?

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I recently ordered my own dvx from profeel.com, and wanted to know if it is common for them to email me the confirmation order form to sign and return (and more specifically FOR THEM TO REQUEST A COPY OF MY DRIVER'S LICENSE AND BOTH SIDES OF MY CREDIT CARD).  They seem cool to the BBB, but I wanted more opinions from all you fine folks.  Please send me an email as soon as you can if you know anything about Profeel.com and their business practices.  Thanks.
 
Hmi5600@yahoo.com
 
Re: Profeel.com Business Practices?

I've never dealt with Profeel, but other companies have requested this info.

However, be aware that Profeel is not an authorized panasonic retailer. If buying gray-market bothers you, you may want to re-think your order. Profeel seems to be one of the better gray-market resellers, but they're not authorized.
 
Re: Profeel.com Business Practices?

So wait.. by grey market.. you mean it's used? Is buydig.com authorized Pana dealer?
 
Re: Profeel.com Business Practices?

I don't know whether it's used or not. Gray market means they don't buy their cameras from Panasonic USA. Panasonic doesn't sell to them.

We don't know where they get their cameras, whether they come from another country (with potential warranty worries) or if they're used, stolen, refurbs, who knows? Could be brand-new units with nothing wrong with 'em, except that there's no paper trail back to Panasonic so we don't know where they get them from.

The only thing we do know is that they don't come directly from Panasonic, and Panasonic does not have a dealer relationship with them. And no, buydig.com is not an authorized dealer either.
 
Re: Profeel.com Business Practices?

I just bought my DVX from them about two weeks ago, and yes I had to send them a fax of my credit card & drivers license. The woman on the other line pushed for a bit, suggesting that I buy additional accessories and an extnded warranty- I turned her down on all requests. She was still very polite afterward, said my order was being processed and that the camera would arrive around Thursday of that week. Showed up Thursday as promised, in perfect condition, sealed in the original Panasonic box with a full US warranty. If they're indeed grey market dealers, they're the most legitimate, reliable grey marketers you're gonna find.
 
Re: Profeel.com Business Practices?

They are gray-market, in the fact that they don't buy their cameras directly from Panasonic.

But your experience mirrors that of others I've heard. Like I said, they are probably one of the best of the gray-marketers.
 
Re: Profeel.com Business Practices?

I appreciate everyone's input on this! I've never ordered anything gray-market before, and I'm still mildly cautious, but feel somewhat assured things will be okay. Their website claims "All products are sold with full USA manufacturer's warranty" and "All items are brand new ---accessories packed by the manufacurer are included". So judging by this, they do receive brand new products packed with everything in its original box with the full USA warranty (even if it does or does not come directly from Panasonic). I'm glad to hear Andyape received everything as expected. We'll see how things turn out. I'll let you know. Thanks for your feedback on them, Andyape!

Out of curiosity, has anybody ever had to deal with Profeel (and their warranty) when attempting to repair anything purched from them. I'd like to hear their stories. (Other gray-market warranty repair stories are welcome, but I'd like to hear specifically about Profeel, since they seem the most reputable, and since that's who I purchased from. Thanks Everyone!

hmi5600@yahoo.com
 
Re: Profeel.com Business Practices?

I purchased my DVX100 from buydig.com. Arrived in brand new packaging. I had to get my cam serviced a few months later and everything went smoothly.
 
Re: Profeel.com Business Practices?

If you do a little digging, you'll see that profeel.com has already been discussed extensively at this sight. I am one of the many who have successfully purchased from them (including Panasonic-but I got my DVX from EVS, our sponser). They are, I believe, authorized dealers for some brands, but Panasonic is not one of them. I'm no business wizard, and I don't know exactly how the video equipment market works, but I'm not sure about Barry's assessment. I don't disagree with a single word he says, it's what seems implied that I may take issue with.

With many products, manufacturers don't necessarily provide directly to retail outlets, unless those outlets are fairly big (like a chain or huge catalog or internet outlet). There are distributors who are in-between the manufacturer and retailer. For retailers to have to put in orders to a bunch of different companies for the hundreds of products they carry would be a nightmare. They usually deal with a few distributors who carry products from dozens or hundeds of companies. The reverse is also true. Big companies don't want to be shipping orders to every little mom and pop operation around the world, they ship huge orders to distributors and be done with. Some huge outlets, like BestBuy, Sears, and other huge chains function as their own distrributor for many of their products because their centralized company can buy in huge quantities and "distribute" to their own stores.

With that said, my strong suspicion is that profeel.com is getting their cameras from Panasonic via some distributor who maybe shouldn't be selling to them. Something like this happened with Apple Computer in the 1990s. There were many distributors who were selling to retailers who weren't authorized Apple dealers. Eventually Apple clamped down and got rid of their grey market. But those computers all came from the same source that the autherized dealers were getting them, they just weren't authorized. Being an authorized dealer means different things for different companies, but usually it means you need to follow a certain standards and protocol or some other set of criterion.

All of this is general business stuff, and I have no idea what the relationship is between Panasonic, it's US and foreign distributors, it's authorized retailers, and unautherized retailers. But if the implication that grey market means the seedy underworld of people with beady eyes working by night with shipments in trucks in dark alleys, that's not necessarily the case.

We've read at this site and elsewhere of people who do bait and switch and are ripoff artists (e.g., advertize a DVX for $2700). My suspicion is that going with an "authorized" dealer means you should be free from such garbage. I suspect a few complaints about business practices and a retailer would lose their authorized status. So at minumum, and authorized dealer would give you a certain level of confidence of legitimacy. Hey, when it came time for me to shell out the bucks for my DVX, I went with an authorized dealer. But I've purchased three big ticket items from profeel, and they were great (since I've discovered EVS, and being I get such great service from Rush, and he frequents our site, and they sponser this site, it's my "default" shop.) But I'd hate to see a class operation (in my estimation) like Profeel maligned unfairly because there are others out there that are crooks.
 
Re: Profeel.com Business Practices?

Excellent post, and I don't disagree with any of it.

I was selling Apple computers back in '84-'86, and I well remember the gray-market wars.  Some renegade dealers were indeed selling Apples to other resellers, in direct violation of their dealership agreements with Apple.  Used to drive us crazy, because we were trying to abide by our agreement, but our customers started buying these "cheap" Apples from unauthorized outlets, then coming to us for all their questions and such.  And they were the worst customers -- they wanted everything for free or cheap, and didn't understand what they were giving up by going with the cheapie non-authorized dealers.

Eventually Apple started tracking serial numbers, found the offending dealers, and terminated their franchise.

Now, regarding Profeel and authorized/non-authorized dealerships: I've always said that Profeel seems to be one of the best of the non-authorized dealers.  I don't know where they get their cameras from.  Maybe it's similar to the Apple situation, like you say -- some authorized reseller is selling tons of DVX's to Profeel, in violation of their agreement with Panasonic.  Or, maybe they're buying them overseas or something.  I don't know.  And that's the point -- nobody knows.  The only thing we do know is, they're not buying them from Panasonic.

Maybe they're buying them from an authorized dealer -- for now.  What happens if Panasonic terminates that authorized dealer's franchise?  What does Profeel do then?  Do they find another authorized dealer who's willing to "cheat", or do they start selling Malaysian cameras?  Who knows?  And that's the thing: you can't know.  Because they are operating on the fringe, circumventing Panasonic's plan, they will always be subject to change.

Does it matter?  Maybe, maybe not.  If you get a bum camera, you'll probably very much wish you'd gotten it from an authorized dealer.  You'll be able to send it in for warranty service (provided that the particular camera you got includes a US warranty, and it's actually a new camera, etc).  But if you bought it from an authorized dealer, Panasonic could just swap it out for a new one.  They WILL NOT do that for unauthorized dealers.

Also keep in mind that the DVX is sold by Panasonic's professional division, not the consumer division, so there are much higher standards placed on the reseller.  Of course, gray-marketers don't have to abide by any of that.

I'm not saying Profeel's a bad place.  But I am saying that they are not an authorized Panasonic reseller for the DVX.  And buying your DVX from an unauthorized reseller absolutely increases your risks in the transaction, and absolutely limits your options in case something goes wrong.  I guess it's up to each individual to decide whether the (imaginary or real) cost savings is compensation enough for that additional risk.

Having looked up Profeel on resellerratings.com, I'd probably not hesitate to buy a lot of stuff from them.  But there's no way I'd buy the DVX from them, or any gray-market reseller, no matter how good their reputation.
 
Re: Profeel.com Business Practices?

[quote author=Barry_Green link=board=nws;num=1084767184;start=0#9 date=05/19/04 at 11:04:45]Having looked up Profeel on resellerratings.com, I'd probably not hesitate to buy a lot of stuff from them.  But there's no way I'd buy the DVX from them, or any gray-market reseller, no matter how good their reputation.[/quote]

Bingo. That's why I didn't. I bought the little 3 chip GS-70 from them last year for about $850. But at the time I didn't realize they weren't an authorized Panasonic dealer.

I wouldn't try to save $200 on a $3400 purchase by going with an non-authorized dealer. For me the decision was easy. While EVS's DVXUser discount price was still higher than Profeel, the combination of tax (I live in NY) and shipping compared to shipping only from EVS made the prices about the same-so I went with the authorized dealer.

I'm puzzled why Profeel is not an authorized dealer.
 
Re: Profeel.com Business Practices?

Order from Willoughbys if you are looking for an inexpensive price and an authorized dealer. They ship fast too. I wouldn't do business with gray market dealers.
 
Re: Profeel.com Business Practices?

I purchased my camera from profeel and got nothing but great customer service. My camera was brand new (had the panasonic unbroken seal) and came with a 5 year warranty on top of panasonics 1 year. You do have to go through some hoops (like copying your drivers license and such) but it's to protect from credit card fraud.

good luck,
Wes
 
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