Problems with Split screen

[Barry_Green]

No offense, but I would be weary of first time posters that trash a camera on their very first post.

Gotta agree with Glenn -- first-timers who execute a drive-by spamming or slamming can usually be classified with trolls; usually they're not out to contribute something of value to the discussion, they're usually trying to either promote their own product or slam someone else's, regardless of the community. The mods here usually delete drive-by spammings.

If they join the forum specifically to trash a product, you do have to wonder about their dedication to the forum and their motives in general. Sure they may be legit, but a whole lot of 'em aren't.

 

[Huiy Tang]

Fot the record...The only postings I have found offensive are those of JVC Reps protecting their interests by posting justifications as to why the camera is indeed not a defective unit.

My position for instance is that I do like the HD100. I will purchase an HD100 once JVC corrects the SSE defect in the new upcoming units. I believe a forum can and should be for consumer advocacy. No one here wants to shut JVC down. People simply want decent value for the several thousands of dollars they are going to spend on a camera like the HD100.

From what I gather about 90% of the postings are accurate and not slanderos in nature. Let the spam filter do it's job, and let's all turn the page.

 

[Barry_Green]

Y'know, Huiy, I don't really disagree with you at all -- but you do seem engaged in a bit of a crusade, and crusades are frowned upon on most boards. Using a forum for consumer advocacy is only okay if a) the forum allows it, and b) anyone from the company in question bothers to read it.

It's not hard to get your message to the decision-makers at JVC. I've spoken with top bosses there. They know what's going on.

As for the rest of your message, I agree with you, I really liked the HD100, I just found it completely not suitable for the purposes I bought it for. And I do believe that the protestations about their inability or unwillingness to once-and-for-all fix the split-screen will probably be overcome sometime in the next few months. If they fix that, I would definitely revisit the camera. But there's no way I could justify keeping it in its current state.

However, be aware that some people *can* justify it, and for some users its problems are not their problems. To some people the lack of 60p recording is a dealbreaker, to others it's a complete non-issue. Just like to some people the lack of HD tape on the HVX is a dealbreaker, to others it's a non-issue. I'd have a hard time justifying letting someone go on a consumer-advocacy crusade demanding that Panasonic add HDV to the HVX, 'cause it just isn't gonna happen. So why clog the board with noise about it?

The only postings I have found offensive are those of JVC Reps protecting their interests by posting justifications as to why the camera is indeed not a defective unit

The split-screen is unquestionably a defect, any reasonable person would agree. The question is: is it a defect that matters? And for some users the answer will be "of course it doesn't matter, I can easily shoot around it." For others, the answer will be "I cannot use this product with this split-screen issue, it ruins my footage." Just like vertical smear on CCDs -- it sure looks like a defect, and it can ruin footage, but all CCDs do it and it is a characteristic of CCDs, and you have to know how it happens and learn to shoot around it. Or accept it. Some will find it unacceptable, and will wait for CMOS. Others just buckle down and shoot, accepting the limitations that smear imposes (bright lights against dark backgrounds being a no-no, etc).

As long as we're clear about the existence of the split-screen, the circumstances that cause it, and the techniques that can be used to avoid it, then we've done our job to inform the customer. It is then the customer's decision as to whether to proceed with the purchase, or to wait for a "revision" (can't call it a "fix" because JVC doesn't acknowledge it as a defect), or to wait for a different product that better suits their needs.

It comes down to this: JVC says the split-screen (and the other issues the camera has) is the price you have to pay, if you want a native-pixel-CCD 24P progressive-scan high-def interchangeable-lens camera at $5500. Is it worth it? For you and me, the answer was no. But for many people the answer will be a resounding "YES". And that's okay. You have to be okay with that.

Where I have the biggest problem is with people not knowing about the split-screen before they buy it, and JVC not allowing exchanges based solely on split-screen complaints. There needs to be an educational campaign launched BY THE DEALERS that when they sell one of these, it should be their responsibility to inform the customer that once money changes hands, they CANNOT return the product if their complaint is split-screen. I have been told by two different dealers that JVC USA will not authorize an exchange for the dealer, so if the dealer DOES accept a return, he's stuck with a used product that can never be sold for new. That represents a huge financial loss for the dealer, and they're not gonna just sit quietly and absorb loss after loss. So customers need to be very aware, and very sure, about the split-screen, before they plunk their money down, because there's a very good chance that they will not be able to return it (at least not without a massive restocking charge).

Other countries may handle it differently, but that's the situation I've encountered in the US.

 

[mezelf27]

Other countries may handle it differently, but that's the situation I've encountered in the US.

Indeed, JVC Belgium told me that I could bring the cam if there was anything like a splitscreen visible at 0 dB (he said it like that, because he was insinuating I'd drop it in and get a fix for that on MY camcorder). He said that when I was informing about my order taking so long (over 3 months now) and asking about the split screen. He claimed there shouldn't be one, but perhaps a faint effect at only +18dB - quite strange that the latest rumours say it might have nothing to do especially with gain.

Anyhow, I wouldn't be surprised if that was so for JVC all over europe. JVC USA seems to have a harsher POV.

 

[Barry_Green]

JVC Canada told Tim Dashwood something similar, regarding split visible at less than 9dB.

JVC USA has told me, and at least two dealers I've spoken to, that split-screen is not a defect and is not justification to return or exchange the product. However, obviously, the degree of SSE could be; it would depend on how obviously defective it was. That would be for a service center or a dealer to decide on a case-by-case basis, but it is absolutely within JVC's prerogative to decide that they think the SSE being exhibited by any particular product is "normal" and therefore to refuse to service it or exchange it. A dealer who takes a camera back on exchange is taking a big risk because JVC may tell them "nope, nothing wrong with that unit, you cannot have a new one in exchange", and that would leave them with a used unit on hand, one that would be impossible for them to sell as "new" and therefore they'd take a big loss on it.

Every dealer is free to decide whether that's a situation they want to involve themselves in. It is imperative for buyers to test the particular camera they are considering buying, in the store, and also to ask up-front about the store's exchange or refund policy.

 

[Barry_Green]

Welcome to the forum, Conceptvideo. Just as a heads-up, political discussion is strictly verboten here, so I've had to edit your post to remove a political reference.

As far as why people get aggressive; well, I don't know, but just like computers, cameras apparently are a very personal thing for many people, and they represent a LOT of money. To many on this board, $5500 is a fortune. Those who feel that they got a great deal are excited to share, and get offended when others say that they were foolish. Those who feel like they got ripped off are very vocal in wanting to share that news. If it was $50, I doubt you'd see the level of emotions being displayed here. At $5500, this represents a once-in-a-lifetime purchase for many people, so obviously the tension level can get stretched...

 

[Huiy Tang]

I am certainly glad that there is no universal stance on the split screen issue. Otherwise I would be wasting my breath. I'm glad to hear that many of you have been thinking discerningly about the Split Screen issue. I don't know any dealer that would inform the customer of the issue, as it would be a deal-breaker for certain for any self respecting videographer. Also-I was charged a hefty restocking fee upon the refund of the camera. Look- I will get off my soap box soon enough. Please understand that I do believe an injustice has befallen the DV-HD community with this issue. I simply want professionals like myself who's bread and butter is their footage to make certain that they are investing their money in the right place. Also I hate to break it to you, but as I posted earlier about a month ago I asked people to track their serial numbers. I exchanged 5 cameras in total and 2 of them were previously owned and used by other consumers. So much for the quality assurance sticker JVC puts on the box. One unit was quite badly scratched, and had racked up a number of drum hours on the camera that JVC didn't even bother to reset. I simply will not stand to have this happen to a colleague if it can be prevented. In the end-should I have been penalized with a restocking fee on a used, and defective camera? I don't think so. Furthermore, JVC is releasing a new run of HD100's very soon. Remember patience is a virtue, and we all can be enjoying a brand new HD100 with no split screen and a upgraded fujinon lens. I hope nobody has any objections to this. I simply believe it to be silly that people are wasting their time tip toeing around the split screen issue rather than working onand maintaing the creativity of their projects. Anyhow. For the love of God, please return your current HD100's and let JVC eat the cost. THey are a multi-billion dollar coporation. I'm just a guy with a little integrity, virtue, and fire in his belly to stand up for the little guy in the face of corporate exploitation. If this is wrong and JVC is right for their blatant disregard for the consumer. Well I'd rather be wrong.

Gee I wonder if JVC is releasing the new line of HD100's so soon because the first line was so wonderful, and not to mention flawless? Duh!

 

[Barry_Green]

I don't know any dealer that would inform the customer of the issue, as it would be a deal-breaker for certain for any self respecting videographer.

Well, whether it's a dealbreaker for "any self-respecting videographer" is a decision that should be made by each videographer. But I do really, really hope that dealers will take the time to inform their customers about it, and let them make a fully informed choice. The dealer loses a lot more than a sale if they put the customer through the ringer on this. I don't know if dealers will advise their customers about it or not, but I would hope they would, as well as being very clear about the return policy.

I don't think there's ever in the history of professional video cameras been an issue like this split-screen thing. It's new and it's unique. It demands a new and unique approach to it -- and in my opinion, that means having the dealer inform the customer that there's controversy about it.

Also-I was charged a hefty restocking fee upon the refund of the camera.

Thanks for spelling that out. I don't think customers are aware of this -- I think a lot of them are approaching it from the idea that "well, I'll just keep returning it until I get a "good one". It doesn't work that way. 15% restocking charges are not uncommon at all. That's about $825 on a $5500 purchase! Even B&H says that they reserve the right to charge a restocking fee of "not less than 15%".

Be very, very clear on your dealer's return policy, and on your degree of understanding and acceptance of the split-screen issue (and the other issues, such as chromatic aberration, focus breathing, etc). Camera dealers aren't like Target where you can just take something back because you don't want it!

I simply want professionals like myself who's bread and butter is their footage to make certain that they are investing their money in the right place.

Me too.

Also I hate to break it to you, but as I posted earlier about a month ago I asked people to track their serial numbers. I exchanged 5 cameras in total and 2 of them were previously owned and used by other consumers.

Exchanged through dealers? Or through JVC's "Perfect Experience" program?

I simply will not stand to have this happen to a colleague if it can be prevented.

I understand, and I empathize. Just be aware that DVXUser isn't anybody's private soapbox (except Jarred Land's) and as long as your posts are helpful and informative, they'll be fine. If they turn to a manufacturer-bashing crusade, they'll probably end up being censored or deleted.

Share information that intelligent people can use to make informed decisions. But please don't go on a "crusade".

In the end-should I have been penalized with a restocking fee on a used, and defective camera? I don't think so.

Neither do I. The very concept is outrageous.

Furthermore, JVC is releasing a new run of HD100's very soon.

Please provide evidence for that claim. Until JVC themselves make such a claim, it should be stated as a rumor, not as definitive fact.

Remember patience is a virtue, and we all can be enjoying a brand new HD100 with no split screen and a upgraded fujinon lens.

I hope so -- that would be a dynamite little camera!

For the love of God, please return your current HD100's and let JVC eat the cost.

Ah, see, that's the "crusade" part. Should Stephen Noe or Tim Dashwood or Nate Weaver return their cameras? They seem very, very happy with them. Sonisfear says he's getting more business than ever before, business he never would have gotten without the HD100. Should he return it?

The product isn't for everyone, that's for sure. Let's let people who like it buy it, and those who don't, well, they shouldn't.

THey are a multi-billion dollar coporation.

JVC in general may be, but JVC Broadcast is a tiny little company, probably not 1/100th the size of a Panasonic Broadcast or a Sony Broadcast.

I'm just a guy with a little integrity, virtue, and fire in his belly to stand up for the little guy in the face of corporate exploitation. If this is wrong and JVC is right for their blatant disregard for the consumer. Well I'd rather be wrong.

I know where you're coming from, and now especially hearing about your restocking charge, I empathize -- you're out $825 (or so) because you bought the product in good faith and found it didn't meet your needs. I understand. And I agree that I would like to help others avoid that fate. But there's a right way to do it and a wrong way. A crusade is the wrong way. The right way is to inform people, and let them make their own decisions.

Gee I wonder if JVC is releasing the new line of HD100's so soon because the first line was so wonderful? Duh!

I can't say I wasn't disappointed in the reality of the product, because I was. But some people clearly do find it wonderful. And again, I ask for documentable evidence that JVC is actually releasing a new line of HD100's. Until it's documented and supported, it must be classified as rumor -- just like the XL2 was a rumor for over five years.

 

[TimurCivan]

man thats crazy... they consider SSE not a defect?

sorry to hear about your experience huiy. best of luck. maybe the XLH1 may suit your needs.... interchangeable lenses 24F etc might not be to bad.

 

[harlan]

SSE being a defect or not; if you're not happy with the product you should be able to receive a full refund for it if you return it during a reasonable timeframe (14 or 30 days as is the norm with pretty much every other product).

 

[athouguia]

I didn't understand this: will I have to pay a fee if I return a defective product in exchange for another??? My camera has a problem, besides the SSE. It has to be repaired or exchanged, it has a warranty... all I have to pay is the shipping costs because I decided to purchase it on another country. Maybe things in EU work differently.

That return policy in US is ridiculous, an authorized dealer won't accept a return of a camera with SSE??? What about those poor guys who never read on forums and purchase a camera with SSE?? Where is the official information about this??? I've always seen USA as a country who defends consumer rights... this is unbelievable.

 

[Mediacre]

Furthermore, JVC is releasing a new run of HD100's very soon.

This is, as I suspected, BS. I talked to a dealer about it and he said he would find out. Today he said he talked to somebody in Japan or from Japan, and he was told there's no such thing as a new HD100 replacement coming. It will most likely have firmware updates, but they are not working in a new camera or updated (hardware) camera.
That's actually logical. It took them a long time to develop and release the HD100. Then they develop and release a replacement in 6 months? It smelled like BS, because it is.

 

[athouguia]

I suspected the same, just a rumour started on DV Info Net.

 

[Huiy Tang]

It was my dealer who verified the the release of the upcoming upgraded hd100. Remember this is the same dealer who exchanged five defective cameras for me. Also he has had on broadcast station, and two educational outfits cancel orders because of the SSE fiasco. If anyone has demanded answers from JVC it was his dealership. He allowed me to sit in on a (speakerphone) conference call with JVC and that is where I first heard of the upgrade. No BS.

 

[Barry_Green]

I didn't understand this: will I have to pay a fee if I return a defective product in exchange for another???

Not if it's actually defective, no. But if it's not defective, then yes, they'll charge you for that.

See, the dealer is now stuck with a camera that he can't sell, because you returned it. It's used. He'd take a loss on it. So if it's defective, it'll be serviced under the warranty -- not exchanged for a new one. If JVC allowed exchanges then the dealer wouldn't be taking a hit, so they'd have no problem exchanging them all day long for you. But JVC doesn't consider SSE a defect, therefore they will not authorize an exchange, so the dealer would then be stuck with a returned camera that they cannot sell as new, so they take a big hit on it.

My camera has a problem, besides the SSE. It has to be repaired or exchanged, it has a warranty... all I have to pay is the shipping costs because I decided to purchase it on another country. Maybe things in EU work differently.

No, that's how things work here too. If it's defective/broken, they will totally exchange it. But if you just don't like it, they will not exchange that. And there is no returning it to get your money back -- that's just a big no-no (at least, not without paying a restocking charge). Some dealers don't allow returns at all, some allow them only within 7 days, some only do it with a big restocking charge. That's up to the dealer, and it's important that you ask your dealer what their policy is before you put your money on the line!

an authorized dealer won't accept a return of a camera with SSE???

Well, let's clarify -- JVC will not allow a return of a camera with SSE. The dealer is free to choose to accept a return if they so want to, but they will get no support from JVC USA when they do so. Therefore, it's extremely unlikely that a dealer would choose to incur that financial hit. You may find a generous dealer out there who will do it, but I'd wager that most won't.

What about those poor guys who never read on forums and purchase a camera with SSE??

Um, well, caveat emptor. They'd better try it out at the dealership first, because if they walk out the door with it, they're committed.

Where is the official information about this??? I've always seen USA as a country who defends consumer rights... this is unbelievable.

The official information is unofficial as far as stated policy to the customer. I have been told verbally, but there is no official statement. I have also been confirmed by two dealers that that's what they were told as well.

The end of it all is that the dealer is free to decide if they want to accept a used unit as a return, but the fact of the matter is that no dealer is going to choose to do that -- they'd be swamped with used product. JVC USA will not exchange product for the dealer if the sole complaint is SSE, so the dealer would be stuck. And they're not going to do that -- they'd lose at least a thousand bucks on every camera sold. So ask your dealer, and don't be surprised if they say "as is -- if you have a problem, take it up with the warranty, but don't bring it back to us and expect us to give you your money back because we won't". You'll still have a warranty, and JVC will still be obligated to fix anything that's wrong with it. The thing is, they say that SSE is not a defect, therefore they have no obligation to "fix" it. You and I may disagree with that position, but that's where things stand now.

 

[stephenlnoe]

...they have no obligation to "fix" it.

Speaking of fixing it. Did you get the chance to ask the dealer whether their service tech can calibrate a camera? Seems to me, over the weeks, this is the key more than anything.

BTW: Are you having a perfect experience?

 

[Mediacre]

It was my dealer who verified the the release of the upcoming upgraded hd100. Remember this is the same dealer who exchanged five defective cameras for me. Also he has had on broadcast station, and two educational outfits cancel orders because of the SSE fiasco. If anyone has demanded answers from JVC it was his dealership. He allowed me to sit in on a (speakerphone) conference call with JVC and that is where I first heard of the upgrade. No BS.

Unless you're talking about a HD100 with updated firmware, yes it's big BS. He said some people might have started this rumor online to get people not to buy the camera now, thinking they will get a better one later on, and so hurting JVC sales. He said the japanese guy was very clear. No new models, no new hardware updates. It is consistent with what Steve Mullen heard from JVC as well. The rumor of a HD200 or a new HD100 IS BS!

 

[BobF]

My local JVC rep said that the studio version of the HD100 (with the tape transport removed and replaced with a 26 pin camera cable connector) that was shown at NAB in April was a huge hit with attendees. Afterall there a lot of small cable stations and churches still using the old GY DV550s as studio cameras because JVC hasn't brought a studio camera for the last five years (neither version of the 5000 nor the new 5100 were studio cams). My rep said that JVC got the message loud and clear and was definitely working on a studio replacement of the 550. Whether it would look like the studio prototype HD100 shown at NAB was still undetermined, but that JVC hoped to bring it out by next NAB. PERHAPS, the camera Huiy is describing is the studio version of the HD100 (the HD150?) and just as the DV500 and the DV550 were sold during the same time period, the HD100 doesn't have to be retired to sell the the new studio version (just add a couple thousand dollars and hopefully tweak the SSE).
Unfortunately, the prototype studio version shown at NAB used the firewire out for the 26 pin connector and the camera couldn't be used with a HDD. Hopefully that problem could be solved and instead of a studio-only camera it could be a "convertible" like the DV550 was.

 

[Barry_Green]

Speaking of fixing it. Did you get the chance to ask the dealer whether their service tech can calibrate a camera? Seems to me, over the weeks, this is the key more than anything.

BTW: Are you having a perfect experience?

My experience has now become perfect, yes. Today I send it back with an RMA # for a refund. I don't know how my dealer worked it with JVC, whether my dealer is taking a hit, or (as I presume) JVC has agreed to exchange the defective unit for a new one which they will then keep in their inventory and be able to sell as new to a new customer. I'm guessing JVC will give the dealer a new one, because mine had other obviously defective issues above and beyond the split-screen.

But I have achieved the ultimate outcome -- I will get to walk away from this, no harm, no foul.

I have no bitterness towards JVC, I wish them well. I think they're a fantastically innovative company -- they invented DVCPRO50, after all (they released it first, as Digital-S, later renamed D-9); they invented the first affordable high-def recording system (D-VHS), and they invented consumer high-def (releasing the HD1 in March 2003, almost two years before the FX1 came out!) And the HD100 has a lot of promise. I just think they jumped the gun. I really think if they'd just have let it bake in the oven a couple more months, they could have found and maybe fixed the split-screen and avoided all the negativity that's happened to them. I will watch its progress and perhaps revisit it six months from now -- perhaps it will have matured and blossomed into what it could (and should) be.

 

[Bob Mueller]

Hi -

Sincere thanks to all on this forum for an interesting and spirited discussion. Time will not permit frequent participation, but I noticed a few mis-statements regarding JVC's practices and thought it might be helpful to briefly clear the air...

Brand equity, ownership experience and customer retention are leading values in our company. Factory-trained field engineering, company-owned service centers and JVC's authorized resellers combine to uphold these values. The Perfect Experience Policy was created as a safety net, so to speak, in the event a JVC Professional owner somehow slips through more traditional support methods. The Perfect Experience Policy is described on JVC Professional Products Comapny's web site: http://pro.jvc.com/prof/support/pepolicy.jsp.

Before release to our resellers, ProHD products are individually evaluated by a U.S. engineering team. It is JVC’s goal is that every ProHD purchaser enjoys a highly successful ownership experience. ProHD Frequently Asked Questions can serve as a helpful resource for prospective owners: http://pro.jvc.com/prof/Attributes/faq.jsp?tree=&model_id=MDL101539&itempath=&feature_id=13

Acceptance of a product return for any reason is the commercial decision of the original selling dealer. JVC endeavors to work in close concert with resellers' commercial decisions and there is no JVC practice imposing a surcharge on our resellers in the event of a customer return.

Though the ProHD product line will steadily grow, the GY-HD100U is a mature product with no successor currently envisioned.

Hope this is helpful!