Problems with low light...need serious help

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Phil1076

Well-known member
This horse has been beaten to death many times according to google, but I still can't find a definitive answer...

I bought my HMC150 in August of 2010 and it already had the 1.21 firmware on it. It was (and is) my first and only HD camera and I have so far used it to shoot 8 or so weddings and some random footage of my baby son.

I purchased the camera because of price vs. performance and one of my main requirements was good low light performance.

After using the camera extensively, I can honestly say I'm extremely disappointed by the image quality of the camera. I don't know if I am expecting too much, but all my footage looks grainy/noisy in all but the brightest scenarios.

I've tried everything...scene files, different PH modes, black balance etc etc and the footage almost always looks like garbage. Even in a well lit church, the wooden pews contain lots of noise and the colors do not look rich at all. I look on vimeo and youtube and I see sample videos from the camera which look absolutely beautiful, even in dimly lit situations and I'm really bummed out about how my footage looks.

I usually use scene file 1 (unaltered) and shoot at 1080 30p. I've had enough of this camera and unless I can get some serious assistance, I'm either going to toss it in the garbage or try to schlep it on eBay.

I have 2

1. Since AVCHD is a fixed codec (21mbps), it makes logical sense that shooting in 720 24p would yield better results than 1080 24p since there are far fewer pixels to compress. To be honest, I've never shot a low light situation at 720 24p. Is this the answer to my problems?

2. I'm willing to provide a zipped up MTS file directly off my camera if anyone wants to take a look and advise. Please send me a PM if you'd like the link. Thanks
 
Have you posted samples of your own footage on the same site/s as the 'beautiful' examples you speak of (for comparison purposes)? Also, what are you viewing your own footage on and how?
 
720p IS marginally less noisy than 1080p, but there are other things you can do to help. The HMC is one of the best low light cameras around. You should see the noise from some of the others!

First, are you looking at this noise primarily on your computer monitor? They are notoriously bad for noise. You also sit much closer to them than normal TV viewing so any noise is even more visible.

Second, it's not really an AVCHD problem. You will even see this noise using an HDMI cable using 4:2:2 output directly to a computer and bypassing the AVCHD codec altogether.

Third (using your example) you are likely to see some noise on church pews what ever camera you are using, so get used to it and learn to process it so it's not noticed by the viewer. Remember they are looking at the video for what is happening, not looking for noise like you/we are.

There isn't a camera out there that won't give you noise at this sort of price range, so don't think that jumping ship to another model will necessarily help. It's partly a function of sensor size, but that's not the whole story. I had a GH1 (running GH13 hack) that was noisy and even my 7D and 5D2 will produce noise on pews. OK, not as much as the HMC, but it's there, especially if you had to turn ISO up. I have no worries about setting up an HMC in a church and getting usable footage from it.

The best tool I can suggest to you is Neat Video. Buy it (there is a trial version) it's totally worth it. Yes it costs a little but really can make a huge difference when using 1/3" & 1/2" chips for HD. Learn to use it without over doing it and your grainy footage can look perfectly acceptable even on a large HD TV. I even use it from time to time on DSLR footage shot above ISO 1250. Even commercial Blu-ray films have noise in some scenes.

You do need to be careful how far you push the footage in color correction - because this can also add noise in abundance! If I need to push things very far I noise reduce before color correction - it seems to help.

Whenever you are shooting a wedding that will be delivered on DVD, shoot at 720p every time. It's much easier on transcoding, much better on hard disk space and much quicker to render. Shooting at 720/60p gives you options of slo-mo if you want it too.

If you are shooting for Blu-ray then you have the option of delivering at either 720p or at 1080p. Both are legitimate Blu-ray frame sizes, although most consumers are expecting 1080p it's fair to say that most won't even notice. In this case run the footage through Neat Video and (while it takes extra time to render) you should be good to go.

I show Blu-ray on a 42" TV at all the Wedding Fairs I go to, and currently all the footage I am showing was shot on the HMCs (often at 720p and uprezed to 1080p) because I have been too busy to make a new show reel. People often marvel at how clear the footage is compared to the guy down the hall. No one has ever mentioned noise.

Don't worry too much looking at Vimeo samples as a guide to noise - the Vimeo codec seems to smooth the footage (reducing noise) to make it easier to compress for download!

So, don't despair. You may need to reset your expectations a little, change your post processing a little, but the HMC is a cracking camera for it's price.
 
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Ok...so perhaps my expectations are too high. I took a look at Neatvideo and, although it seems to be too good to be true, many people say it works really well. I will try it out tonight and most likely purchase it as the reviews are stellar and it's only $100.

You're right about viewing the footage on the computer monitor also...

One question: when you say to de-noise the footage before color correcting, you mean apply neatvideo, export, and then re-import to color-correct, right?
 
Phil1076 said:
One question: when you say to de-noise the footage before color correcting, you mean apply neatvideo, export, and then re-import to color-correct, right?
Click to expand...

I mean apply Neat Video before Color Correction in the Filters on each clip. I don't export / re-import anything. You can apply Neat Video before or after other filters (I don't know what NLE you are using - but this is by far the more common way).
 
Exact,

Have you integrated Neat Video into a workflow that includes grading in Color? I wonder if the plugin will work on video that is sent to/rendered in Color, or if it simply applies its effect after rendering.
 
hendosan said:
Exact,

Have you integrated Neat Video into a workflow that includes grading in Color? I wonder if the plugin will work on video that is sent to/rendered in Color, or if it simply applies its effect after rendering.
Click to expand...

The honest answer is I can't remember if it gets applied before or after, but my 'guess' is after.

I'm currently using Colorista II as a plug-in for FCP instead of Color, because at least things are all self contained within a single FCP project and I don't have to worry about collapsing video tracks on the timeline, rendering motion footage etc, or conforming footage for future round tripping or backing up color projects in case I need to go back. So, sorry I can't remember what happened when I 'was' using Color.
 
I'll try this tonight when I get home. Thanks for the detailed explanation and taking the time to respond.
 
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