Nate Weaver
Veteran
That needs to be remembered. Red began the age of cameras with beta firmware and emotional attatchments.
F5: Pro Res & DnxHD announced for the F's!
- Thread starter Fotojorno
- Start date
That needs to be remembered. Red began the age of cameras with beta firmware and emotional attatchments.
MPB
Well-known member
you're right, it's a place to share information. if you don't like what you're reading, stop.
captainjman
Well-known member
It's amazing no one wants to really talk about this
captainjman
Well-known member
Barons - you're right, it is a place to discuss things, thank god we live in a country where the open communication is a RIGHT, we have the RIGHT to say what we want just as much as you do. What a Bully thing to say - If some of us have a different opinion you can either decide not to answer, ignore it, or comment. I am amazing though that so many people are choosing to ignore really important discussions, that post about economics with the "fake options" is about real logic, why ignore real logic?
Sony may be a lumbering giant but trust me, if we ALL jumped up and down they would care. Sony can't afford to do all the R&D, advertisements, shows, etc etc and then not sell anything. No matter how rich you are - if you go one or two cycles like this you will be brought to your knees! They aren't a magical dragon or a sword stuck in a rock, it's a corporation that cares about things like profit, return on investment, market share... if people did decide to band together it would become their best interest to not ignore people after they made promises. If they seem like they don't care it's because they are scared... sony hopes to keep your situation small and quiet. If it became a huge public relations mess they would fix your situation very quickly. And in the end of the day we only want sony to succeed and we want to spend our money there - anyone who wants to buy their products is not an enemy.
I think we should create an organization with a large voice that can really help sony make gear we ALL can't resist to spend our money on... and I want to make sure they know we want them to be very very profitable so they continue to follow that example - working with the pros and not just people who "shoot people from a distance" whatever that means. LOL. They need to have representation from people who rent equipment, from people who make art, from those who earn a living with their gear, so they know what we ALL need and want-
Barons - but don't ever think that people should shut up and leave if they don't agree with you! Thats just pervasive.
JackCarter
Well-known member
+1, I couldn't agree more! And with that, I'm off back in to hiding!
morgan_moore
Major Contributor
it seems to me that the 'cost' goes like this.. the cams can present good or bad value.
Cat1) you are a rental co. you have a booking for 40days this summer. by Q3 2014 the cost is covered, by Q4 2014 you are in profit, If you sell at Q2 2015 at 33% of cost price you have done nice business.
(especially if you bought five and the cost price was 80% of street price)
Cat2) you are an owner op. your rental line item on your billing should cover your 24 month lease purchase payments. if the cam is still being booking in 25months you are profiting there forward, If the cam becomes 'uncool' and stops being booked after 12 months you have a big problemo.
I think the 'tension' in the 'value' of these cams is that many cameras seem a big risk if used in Cat2 manner. Cat2 worked well for ENG cams and not for the F3.
Personally as a Cat2 operator I did not proceed with my purchase of the F5 on lease and went safe with a used F3 cash purchased from a Cat1 operator (we were both happy even at a great price for me he was well in profit). I await a camera that is a clear winner for Cat2 operators before going lease purchase on a new cam.
S
Cat1) you are a rental co. you have a booking for 40days this summer. by Q3 2014 the cost is covered, by Q4 2014 you are in profit, If you sell at Q2 2015 at 33% of cost price you have done nice business.
(especially if you bought five and the cost price was 80% of street price)
Cat2) you are an owner op. your rental line item on your billing should cover your 24 month lease purchase payments. if the cam is still being booking in 25months you are profiting there forward, If the cam becomes 'uncool' and stops being booked after 12 months you have a big problemo.
I think the 'tension' in the 'value' of these cams is that many cameras seem a big risk if used in Cat2 manner. Cat2 worked well for ENG cams and not for the F3.
Personally as a Cat2 operator I did not proceed with my purchase of the F5 on lease and went safe with a used F3 cash purchased from a Cat1 operator (we were both happy even at a great price for me he was well in profit). I await a camera that is a clear winner for Cat2 operators before going lease purchase on a new cam.
S
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starcentral
Veteran
I don't mind talking hate but just a reminder this is a ProRes & DNxHD thread so not sure why all the Sony hate is needed in it and let's keep things civil.
I don't think anyone really like giant corporations and sometimes the lack of choice they give consumers. I lived through the era of a prosumer cam without XLR inputs, etc.. etc.. it was bureaucratic then, it is bureaucratic now. It's just the world we've been living in for centuries so today I'm not expecting things to be any different - however companies like RED, BMD, and now even Sony do seem to be singing a different tune and I will give them that.
10 years ago if anyone told me Sony would add a mainstream codec like ProRes or DNxHD I would have laughed in their face :shocked:
I don't think anyone really like giant corporations and sometimes the lack of choice they give consumers. I lived through the era of a prosumer cam without XLR inputs, etc.. etc.. it was bureaucratic then, it is bureaucratic now. It's just the world we've been living in for centuries so today I'm not expecting things to be any different - however companies like RED, BMD, and now even Sony do seem to be singing a different tune and I will give them that.
10 years ago if anyone told me Sony would add a mainstream codec like ProRes or DNxHD I would have laughed in their face :shocked:
JackCarter
Well-known member
Seeing as I'm not banned.....
This is the way I intend to buy cameras from now on.... Used.... Unless Sony do go with the idea of building a camera from scratch, like I do with P.C's, now that would be FAB. Choose your own sensor, body, codec, this is the future, and no one will wine. The first company to actually do this properly will make a lot of money. I actually can't wait for the day that I move away from Sony.... But like a good whore... You always go back :happy:
CaptainJman is right, we should all try to get along as best as we can, build a coalition.
Dennis, nobody hates Sony, we go back because of the good stuff, like reliability, features, sometimes price point (look at the FS700), but the bad points of every camera need to be addressed, like the viewfinder cable position on your F55, which I didn't know about until yesterday. I've not been researching the new F's for a reason, my eyes are much bigger than my wallet.
Back on topic..... This ProRes upgrade, does anybody actually know how this will be achieved? If it is hardware, will it even fit in the current body? Or will you have to buy the new one? I smell $,$$$.$$!
This is the way I intend to buy cameras from now on.... Used.... Unless Sony do go with the idea of building a camera from scratch, like I do with P.C's, now that would be FAB. Choose your own sensor, body, codec, this is the future, and no one will wine. The first company to actually do this properly will make a lot of money. I actually can't wait for the day that I move away from Sony.... But like a good whore... You always go back :happy:
CaptainJman is right, we should all try to get along as best as we can, build a coalition.
Dennis, nobody hates Sony, we go back because of the good stuff, like reliability, features, sometimes price point (look at the FS700), but the bad points of every camera need to be addressed, like the viewfinder cable position on your F55, which I didn't know about until yesterday. I've not been researching the new F's for a reason, my eyes are much bigger than my wallet.
Back on topic..... This ProRes upgrade, does anybody actually know how this will be achieved? If it is hardware, will it even fit in the current body? Or will you have to buy the new one? I smell $,$$$.$$!
petermullett
Well-known member
There's one hell of a lot of words words words and chest beating here in this thread. If it was a bar it would never close and would be making money hand over fist.
Apart from his health insurance remark I fully agree with Doug Jensen's posting, you make your choices, pays your money and get out and on with it. Hell, after decades in this game I'm still looking for the perfect equipment bag let alone finding the perfect piece of gear to put in the damn thing.
Apart from his health insurance remark I fully agree with Doug Jensen's posting, you make your choices, pays your money and get out and on with it. Hell, after decades in this game I'm still looking for the perfect equipment bag let alone finding the perfect piece of gear to put in the damn thing.
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HD Gear Guru
Well-known member
If someone really is charging a rental price based on the 24 month payment they are foolish. I would not base the rental rate I was charging on the lease payments of a 24 month deal. I would think the F5 should be able to be paid off in 12-14 months. It has to so that you can start saving monies for the next purchase.
I sold an F5 to a client who paid back the purchase cost in about 8 months. Now to be clear they had been renting cameras so for this customer they dropped rental expense and put that $ into purchase.
That said making purchase of something in used market is always going to provide a benefit of a matured product and market that is ready and able to support that format. Purchase of used F5 /55 before their Prores announcement was probably a good idea. After Prores DNx announcement that price went up. The usage of these cameras is really starting to grow.
My 2 cents.
Lenilenapi
Carbonite Member
Doug, give us a break - In the rest of the world you don't even get the "free market option" to pay a fine for not buying health insurance - its just taken with your taxes. Aside from that though I agree with you .
CharlesPapert
Director of Photography
Payoff of gear is often less to do with the actual rental rate, more to do with the number of rental days. If person X works twice as much as person Y, person Y doesn't just get to double his rental rate to make up for it, unless he is fortunate enough to have clients who are oblivious to market rates. Obviously every freelancer has good and bad years, so unless one has longterm contracts that guarantee a certain number of rental days, there's always risk involved in making purchases based on being able to pay off in a given period of time.
In my particular universe I am beholden to match rental house rates most of the time, because I work with savvy line producers who know what things cost and will insist on multiple bids to ensure this. In the last few years jobs that last longer than a couple of weeks which traditionally were billed at a 2 day week have been slashed to a 1 day week, thanks in part to the proliferation of boutique and privately owned renters that are acting as loss leaders. That means gear has to rent twice as much to return the same amount as it did a few years ago. Couple that with shorter obsolence cycles and it's easy to see why this has become a much trickier game than it used to.
Myself, I own a lot of gear, but no camera at present. I sniffed at the F55 early on but in the long run, I'm glad I didn't invest because it has taken a very long time for the camera to mature. I have used it on a small number jobs and am growing more confident in its abilities as more of the issues are solved and its capabilities are unlocked. I'll still spec the Alexa for most jobs but I think the F55 is finally nipping at that venerable camera's heels (many thanks to Nate Weaver for keeping me informed on the bleeding edge of the F55's ever-evolving secret sauce).
Jim Anderson
Well-known member
Good points Charles. I have set my daily rental price of the F5 in the middle of the spectrum of rental house pricing (at least here in the NY area). The release of the new DnX and ProRes capabilties will make the camera easier to offer to a client since up until now, the Canon C500 or other cameras with an external recorder (AJA Ki-Pro Quad) would provide the 4:4:4 ProRes if a client requested it. I see the ROI coming back pretty quickly since it is mainly the camera body, viewfinder and media cards I'm after since the lenses, batteries and Odyssey 7Q can be used on the next generation of cameras when the time comes.
Sony F5, PMW-500 XDCAM, Canon C300, BMCC and Panasonic HD
http://andersonvideoproductions.com/
Sony F5, PMW-500 XDCAM, Canon C300, BMCC and Panasonic HD
http://andersonvideoproductions.com/
captainjman
Well-known member
Has anyone heard about the codec upgrade?
PS - Trust me, sony is looking at this forum as well, not just their own. They care about profit and loss- and they investigate all these sites and report back to their boss. And I like that because it shows that they care. Of course they care, they want to make money. And NONE of us want them to give up ro lose- we just want it to be the best for everyone.
J
PS - Trust me, sony is looking at this forum as well, not just their own. They care about profit and loss- and they investigate all these sites and report back to their boss. And I like that because it shows that they care. Of course they care, they want to make money. And NONE of us want them to give up ro lose- we just want it to be the best for everyone.
J
If the ProRes option for the F's is cost prohibitive for anyone(no price yet). Check out this cool new little monitor-less ProRes recorder from Atomos, it's 3" by 1", records to the cheaper CFast cards and is $295. Pretty neat.
http://www.atomos.com/ninja-star/
http://www.atomos.com/ninja-star/
starcentral
Veteran
Problem is the 'Ninja star' is HDMI only, and most cameras with an HDMI port only have an 8-bit image behind it. Still, impressive price for what it is but SDI would have made it better.
True, but we have 10-bit images behind it. Of course SDI would of been better, even the mini-sdi from the first gen Samurai.
starcentral
Veteran
Once you go from 10-bit to 8-bit to 10-bit the final image is 8-bit.
The only one camera I know with a true 10-bit image behind HDMI is the new GH4 and even then I don't believe it.
The only one camera I know with a true 10-bit image behind HDMI is the new GH4 and even then I don't believe it.