F5: Pro Res & DnxHD announced for the F's!

Seeing as we have had a bit of sun today, I'm in a much better mood :laugh:

I suppose a positive way to look at external recorders is they can be used on most cameras, so it could be seen as a better investment.

Unless a deal comes up, I will most probably buy one of the new F's on the used market, but by that time, the ALEXA should be on the used market too. I was looking at the ALEXA and AMIRA last night, never bothered before as we are talking ARRI prices, but I suppose you get what you pay for. I find the lack of 4K on these cameras very assuring, and ProRes 4444 to SxS cards, WOW! Soon to be had on the F5/55 I hope.

AVCHD is a delivery codec, it's O.K for Blu Rays etc, but limited and can be a pain to edit as it's so highly compressed. Imagine 4K AVCHD, you would need software that could handle 64GB RAM, or more. I have 64GB of RAM in my computer, the software I use can only access 32GB, and it's still a pain to edit with FX added on. XDCAM is beautiful, I can edit it all day with no problems, but I saw issues with it when I graded some S-Log footage shot internal. The only reason I want ProRes 4444 is for S-Log.

For you Nate :)

 
Used alexa will be new price of F55 (or around there) and with F55 you get mpeg 50mbps, SR codec 444, XAVC, HD, 2k, 4k, RAW 16-bit, HFR, center scan, and about a dozen other things.

If you are owner operator I think F55 is most feasible. :cool:
 
It's all your fault Dennis, you inspired me to research other cameras :cool: one leads to another, that leads to another, that leads to another.

Who knows whats around the corner, I'm still intrigued by Doug Jensen's comment, ''Oh man, if I could only say something. There is a very interesting bit of news regarding the F5 that will create quite a stir. But you'll have to wait. Sorry.'' Is this good news or bad?

And for the FS700 users ''A little chatter about the camera but I think it is the new e-mount lens options that will make FS700 owners take notice.'' Sony E-Mount lenses are the worst lenses I've ever used! I wouldn't waste my money, they are like toys! I was using one tonight, seriously they are that bad. Now add a FZ/PL mount on to 700, and I would take notice.

I can't wait for NAB, I have a feeling it's going to be real interesting, perhaps Panasonic's year!
 
JackCarter said:
Who knows whats around the corner, I'm still intrigued by Doug Jensen's comment, ''Oh man, if I could only say something. There is a very interesting bit of news regarding the F5 that will create quite a stir. But you'll have to wait. Sorry.'' Is this good news or bad?
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If you own an F5 or are thinking of buying one, the news at NAB ought to be good to hear. If you are an F55 owner, you will not be pissed off. Everyone is happy . . . or at least they should be. There's always some a-hole who thinks they deserve a BMW for the price of a Chevy and will twist it around in their own distorted world to seem like they are being ripped off if they don't get their way.
 
Come on Doug, all these cameras are a rip off. You know when the next generation are here, perhaps in 2015, these cameras will go exactly the same way as the F3 did, on eBay with no one buying them, not even for a quarter of the price that the owners paid for them. I find it amazing that many people on here dread NAB, and what it may bring. It's not about being a a-hole, it's about not conforming to what the corporations want. It should be the corporations conform to what we want, we are the customer. Did you really want to spend all that money on the F55? I doubt it, the corporations wanted you to. This technology craze is like being a junkie, you just have to have the latest thing! 3D, 4K, what's the next thing? I see the F65 now shoots 8K!

In the last few months of being on here, I've come to this conclusion. Do not waste money chasing technology, It's better wait it out. I'd rather spend my money on lenses and other bits that will last a life time, not a year or two. I am very opinionated, yes, however I'm not here to argue with people, but to discuss. No offence intended to anyone.

As for your comment, I suspect 4k XAVC internal on the F5. As for the F55, either 4K ProRes, or perhaps 8K, if the 55 does have the same sensor as the F65.

I can't wait to laugh at the new NEX lenses :D All the best.
 
Lenses are no longer the "forever" investment, as sensor sizes become larger, and the market demands more for less. Technology is pushing faster in that sector than ever before. I was disconsolate to discover that my $35K Alura 45-250 vignetted very slightly on the Phantom Flex 4K last week, because that sensor is for some reason slightly larger than S35. Yay...
 
JackCarter said:
Do you not think that Sony's implementation of internal codecs is just ridiculous?
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Never think Sony are 'ridiculous'. Odd maybe but not 'ridiculous'

In their eyes the XAVC is more efficient than Prores, Raw is better than Prores (and smaller than 444) and SRcodec fits legacy workflows - no fuzzy thinking there at all.

S
 
AF is going to be a hot button topic. I've just seen a demo of a potentially disruptive version of this concept which will debut at NAB. Lots to say about this, but not in this thread.

I'm considering switching from Alexa to F55 for the upcoming season of "Key & Peele" but it will depend on when the ProRes option becomes available. We can't add transcoding into the post workflow at this point without a very good reason. Nate has convinced me that SLog3 is a solid swap for LogC, and a lighter body (and potentially cheaper rental) is a good incentive, not to mention increased sensitivity.
 
I think all of us should stick together - no matter what camera we purchased, F3, F5, F55, F35, whatever. If sony sees that we are united and won't let them promise upgrades and then not follow through, let alone give you closure, they will know they can't get away with it and will have to be fair to us all. And lets be honest "closure" is not really the answer we want!

If the F5/F55 owners say that the F3 problem is not our problem then we should expect to be treated just as poorly down the road when the next technology comes out and they decide it is no longer in the best interests to serve us. It will become their best interest when they can't make anyone happy until they treat us all properly.

There are only two possible futures -

1. The continuation of business as usual, where a company makes most of it's money on new cameras, causing our "old technology" to be worth nothing within 12-24 months OR
2. We show unity and allow Sony to make dsssequal profits for upgrading our equipment and maintaining a camera platform for many many years.

Obviously the second option is the best one for us all- and here is why Sony WILL not only comply but will be happy to oblige - BIGGER PROFITS

We need to let sony charge enough on upgrades to our current camera systems to equal what they are currently making through new sales - and you will see how fast:

1. Our gear will not become obsolete nearly as quickly as before
2. Sony will stop turning their backs on it's clients once a new camera comes out
3. We are offered all the features we want, faster than ever
4. More of us will be happier as we can pick and choose the add-ons we want/need and pass on those we don't
5. Sony will gain more marketshare
6. We squeeze every bit of performance and capability out of our gear

We have to let Sony know that this is what "We The People" or should I say "we the Customers" want to invest in. So much of our old cameras are present in our new ones. A new body, a new lens mount, a new power source, new connectors, new LCD panels, new GUI's, - and all of it was working just fine on our previous cameras. All that costs money to replace - not only from a parts perspective but from design and engineering and even shipping too. I think the F5'F55 is a solid platform that can continue to be built on for years to come. Eventually I think Sony will sell us cameras with the ability to swap out every internal component including the sensor too. One day we will purchase a shell and then fill in the blanks with the components we want - even having multiple choices to choose from. Imagine having the choice to install a 4k sensor or 8k one, let you choose which media you want to use... SXS Pro+ or SD - you just slip the module you want into the compartment.. maybe have different ones for different clients

who knows, maybe some of it's a mess - but it's better than losing 30,000 every 24 months, isn't it?

It all starts with unity.
 
The thing is the F55 shoots high FPS, Raw 4k, global shutter.

Really I cant see much reason to upgrade it.

--

I shoot stills on a 2008 nikon D3, it is the F55 of still cameras, the D1 and D2x were the F3 of stills cameras, fundamentally flawed and now valueless.

S
 
JackCarter said:
Come on Doug, all these cameras are a rip off. You know when the next generation are here, perhaps in 2015, these cameras will go exactly the same way as the F3 did, on eBay with no one buying them, not even for a quarter of the price that the owners paid for them. I find it amazing that many people on here dread NAB, and what it may bring. It's not about being a a-hole, it's about not conforming to what the corporations want. It should be the corporations conform to what we want, we are the customer. Did you really want to spend all that money on the F55? I doubt it, the corporations wanted you to. This technology craze is like being a junkie, you just have to have the latest thing! 3D, 4K, what's the next thing? I see the F65 now shoots 8K!

In the last few months of being on here, I've come to this conclusion. Do not waste money chasing technology, It's better wait it out. I'd rather spend my money on lenses and other bits that will last a life time, not a year or two. I am very opinionated, yes, however I'm not here to argue with people, but to discuss. No offence intended to anyone.

As for your comment, I suspect 4k XAVC internal on the F5. As for the F55, either 4K ProRes, or perhaps 8K, if the 55 does have the same sensor as the F65.

I can't wait to laugh at the new NEX lenses :D All the best.
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Jack, I won't even waste time responding to asinine statements such as these. If you think you can build a better camera cheaper, I invite you to do it. I'm sure customers will be beating a path to your doorstep. Until then, you'll have to settle for what other people create and accept that it might not be exactly how JACK wants it. So build your own. I know several people who go through life thinking that corporations and "the man" rip them off with every transaction they do in life. So if you feel that a corporation has forced you to buy something you don't want, I suggest you call the police. How did they do it? Did they put a gun to your head and assure you that either your brains or your signature would be on the contract?

And if you feel that you bought a product that did not live up to the manufacturer's promises, then I suggest you seek a refund or call an attorney and file suit. But stop griping that you didn't get more than you paid for and were ripped off because of it. That is just childish.
 
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JackCarter said:
I'm still intrigued by Doug Jensen's comment, ''Oh man, if I could only say something. There is a very interesting bit of news regarding the F5 that will create quite a stir. But you'll have to wait. Sorry.''
Click to expand...

As highly speculated on my part (and what people are sick of hearing me say) the ProRes / DNxHD will likely make use of the R5 recorder given new AXS-slim cards were announced.

For F5 owners I suspect they will now finally have the ability to shoot 4k in a codec but now instead of getting XAVC internal they will get ProRes external via R5.
 
JackCarter said:
all these cameras are a rip off. You know when the next generation are here, perhaps in 2015, these cameras will go exactly the same way as the F3 did,
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That is not what will happen IMO, yes in 2015 we may get the F5 spec for $8-10k but that wont make the F5 useless.

What you are (or are not) paying for is being the early adopter which will (or wont) get you a hook in your marketplace.

I dont think there is debate we will have 4k phones that may be better image makers than the F55, but we may not get them until 2020 or like their formfactor.

S
 
define "rip off"? I think some of Sony's original cameras selling $200k was a rip off, but it all depends who you ask.

As for longevity of F5/F55 I honestly still see the longevity of the F3 so I think the F5/F55 is 1.) not overpriced for what it is 2.) can possibly last well into 10 years from now.

Here's how I look at it:

2004 - Canon XL2 + PS Technik mini35 adapter = $17,199
2007 - RED One = $17,199
2010 - Sony F3 = $13,500
2013 - Sony F5 = $20,000
2013 - Sony F55 = $34,000


Not bad in my books.
 
One way of defining 'rip off' is cost/depreciation per year (or same minus est rental invoiced)

One that basis a $20k camera with a two year 'life' could be more or a 'rip off' than an $80k camera with a 5 year life

My most 'expensive' camera was the Canon 7d - I got rid of it at a big loss after about 3 weeks (I bought it to get 25p when the 5d2 was only 30p, the 5d2 25p firmware came out the next week!)

S
 
I look at the progression of features over 10 years and nothing appears a rip off to me. Usually if something is too expensive for someone, it is a rip-off to them. I would call the Alexa a rip-off because I can not afford it. But in reality, it is not a rip-off. The camera rents, gets work, is industry standard and probably makes 0.34% cost of a typical hollywood production.

Then there is the "want" factor.

I WANT the F55, I can't afford it, but I'm going to get it anyways and work real hard to get it to work for me. Maybe I'll take a few of those gigs I seriously don't ever want to work on, but I NEED the money now because I WANTED the F55 which I could not afford.

:)

In the end people go into denial and end up buying what they can afford and using that. Everything outside that becomes either "overkill", "not really needed", or... "a rip off".
 
A rip off is when you don't get what you paid for. In the case of the F55, Sony is still adding NEW features that I didn't even expect I would be getting. That does not fit any definition of a ripoff.
Whether you find the camera a good business investment for you or not, is an entirely different matter. My camera was paid for before the end of 2013 is now a cash cow, just like all my cameras that came before it. I'm crying all the way to the bank. If I could get ripped off a few more times like this I could retire early.
 
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