Powering both FS700 and O7Q with one battery

Essami

Essami

Well-known member
Hi,

I'm looking for a solution that would allow me to power both the FS700 and the Odyssey 7Q with just one battery connected to the FS700. I do lots of handheld work so want to avoid all the weight and bulk I possibly can. I also use a Cineroid EVF so best case scenario would be to run all three devices from one battery, but I suspect this won't be possible.

I do not want to add a v-lock or a battery plate to the O7Q. Currently I power both the FS700 and Cineroid with a Swit S-8972 and this works great but my understanding is that it's not enough to power FS700 and O7Q.

Sami
 
don't think you'll find a battery of sufficient capacity to do what you want, unless you go v-lock or AB brick. That's what I use, mounteded to the handgrip rosette, it counterbalances the left side monitor pretty well.
 
I'd say you're better of with the V-lock system.

I suspect Sam will chip in and say 'don't believe them when they say heavier is better' but it really is: a heavy camera, properly balanced really smooths out your shots.

The issue with handheld work being tiring is not the weight of the system it's how it's balanced. If you get a properly designed ergonomic camera where the centre of gravity sits directly above your shoulder i.e. like a proper ENG style camera like a Sony F900, or a film camera like the Arri LT - where even the mags had spools that shifted position to take into account the movement of the COG caused by the film moving from one spool to another, you can work with it comfortably all day on the shoulder no problem (talk to a news cameraman if you don't believe me). If the COG is over your shoulder, it's your back and hips that take the weight. However, if the COG is off, you end up compensating with arms and that get's really tiring, really quickly.

The issue with the FS700, the F3, the F5, the 5D, the D800, the BMPC, the Epic, the Alexa, all of the modern cameras, is that none of them are designed with the human body in mind (it looks like the Amira actually changes that! Finally!) so they're a total pig to work with.

However, If you design your shoulder rig carefully and make sure it is balanced right (almost so you can sit it on your shoulder, let go and have it stay there, you'll be laughing. Even with a Vlock battery the FS700 + matte box + lens + O7Q + EVF isn't really that heavy and the V-lock works quite well as both counterbalance and power source. I'd suggest you put the EVF on one side and the O7Q on the other (so they counter balance each other), but close to the body - but, ideally, you want as little hanging off the side as possible). The only issue may be the weight will shift when you swap lenses, but if you're using modern Canon Zooms, for example, their plastic bodies meant they're quite light, so the COG shouldn't shift too far forwards and back.

Check out Sam's rig: http://halfinchrails.com/rigs-and-kits/t60-camera-rig - it's good value, but low profile (again saving weight if you want to) and can can work quite well to balance out everything.

At the end of the day, it's about sorting out the balance, rather than the overall weight that will make a difference. The Z1 weighs very little, but I found it much tougher to operate hand held than the much heavier F900...
 
I fully agree about the weight and the balance. Getting the EVF helped A LOT already to get better balance. Good point on the counter balance with the EVF!
 
Colinelves said:
I suspect Sam will chip in and say 'don't believe them when they say heavier is better'
Click to expand...

Don't believe them when they say heavier is better.

Heavy is bad. But it depends what you mean by heavy, I call a built Alexa/Epic/F3/F65 heavy, they tear your arm off just putting them on the shoulder unless you have an A/C to do it for you.

I would say 700+Vlock+Ody is 'right' :)

I would not be scared of going Vlock - I think it will have the power and produce the right counterbalance effect, and also clean up your life.. if your life is a wad of different chargers and cable knots.

S
 
It's not possible to power the FS700 and the 7Q with one small Swit battery as I've talked to several people very in the know about this.

The best thing to do if you want light is to have a medium sized 770 power the 7Q and the regular 970 powering the FS700.

As someone who shoot a ton of handheld, I am in the school that heavy is bad. The heavier your rig is, the more conservative you shoot IMO. But everyone has their own theories.

For my purposes, the lighter the FS700 the better it is for handheld. I have a very minimal rig with the 7Q as the main monitor (same place where an EVF would go), a Westside AV clock arm and a small shoulder plate that I bolt directly to the camera to save the need for a base plate and rods; and it's great for handheld.
 
Right now I'm looking at getting 4 x Cineroid F550 battery 2200MA to power the Odyssey, should last 2h / battery I'm told. (Ordering from Visual Impact). Shame there is no battery plate to fit two, would be nice thin set-up (I really don't want the O7Q to become too extended in the back). I can use these same batteries with the Cineroid EVF and continue using my bigger Swit batteries to power the FS700. All charge with the same dual charger and if I'm in a pinch can put the big battery on the O7Q.

I think about 6kg is a good weight for me (I'm a small guy). This set-up will be about 5.5kg with a follow focus so I get to the weight where it's stable but not too heavy to carry for extended periods.

A Red One is what I call heavy (great image though!). :)

sami
 
Where do you guys buy the NP-F770 batteries? I see they are discontinued by Sony. Is there a replacement from them or do you guys buy from ebay? Plenty on offer there...
 
morgan_moore said:
Don't believe them when they say heavier is better.

Heavy is bad. But it depends what you mean by heavy, I call a built Alexa/Epic/F3/F65 heavy, they tear your arm off just putting them on the shoulder unless you have an A/C to do it for you.

S
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Yup, and they're all designed to be operated by robots, from what I can tell. None of them are ergonomic. Try the Amira out when it comes along - you'll see the difference. There's definitely a point when there's too much weight (I once worked on a short where the DP was working off a Moviecam Compact with 1000' mag on it - that was definitely too heavy) but I wouldn't say the others (especially the F3) are too heavy for hand held. It's a bit of as hoof to get it on the shoulder, but once it's there the weight is fine. The problem all of them have is they're not balanced properly.
 
paulcurtis said:
+9999

Although i've still not really manage to find a rig for me that i feel is balanced...

cheers
Paul
Click to expand...

Aye, there's the rub. You'll need counter balances in odd places. because the weight is distributed weirdly in these cameras - especially when you add in all the crap to make them vaguely useable hand held.
 
gene_can_sing said:
As someone who shoot a ton of handheld, I am in the school that heavy is bad. The heavier your rig is, the more conservative you shoot IMO. But everyone has their own theories.
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I hear where you're coming from, but I would disagree. I've found the extra weight actually makes the odd angles work better - hanging the camera low to track the ground you get a much smoother shot with a heavy camera, balances correctly over the handle. But, as you say, each to his own...
 
FWIW....
I know it's an increasing task for a videographer to carry more weight on his shoulders, no argument from me. But, the physics of vibration and motion control calls for more mass, i.e. weight. So, for a steadier shot with smaller pan and roll excursions, add weight.....until one gets tired and starts shaking...hehehehe.
 
Essami said:
Where do you guys buy the NP-F770 batteries? I see they are discontinued by Sony. Is there a replacement from them or do you guys buy from ebay? Plenty on offer there...
Click to expand...

I have two of these and they work well and have had general good Amazon reviews. I have three 770's for the 7Q. However, I noticed that 4K output seems to suck up batteries faster, probably because of the increased Data, so I might have to order 1 more for run-and-gun.

I only use the 3rd parties for the 7Q because while they communicate fine with the 7Q on battery life, they don't communicate accurately with the FS700 on battery life.

I know you mentioned getting 550 with 2200m MA, that would probably go very fast on the 7Q. The 770 size seems to be a good balance between size and battery life. Before the 4K, three 770s seem to be fine for a whole day of 2K shooting, but now I think you might need four to be on the safe side if you are out in the field.

http://www.amazon.com/Capacity-NP-F...=UTF8&qid=1395755168&sr=8-4&keywords=sony+770
 
cuervo said:
FWIW....
I know it's an increasing task for a videographer to carry more weight on his shoulders, no argument from me. But, the physics of vibration and motion control calls for more mass, i.e. weight. So, for a steadier shot with smaller pan and roll excursions, add weight.....until one gets tired and starts shaking...hehehehe.
Click to expand...

Vibration and motion are affected by mass and position. Aka Inertia. KE=1/2MVsquared

So a brick on the shoulder is less stable than 2 1/2 bricks 0.2m for and aft of the shoulder.

Splitting the masses has a huge affect because of the square factor. Simple steadicam physics.

So a spread light rig (eg a 700+Vlock on rods) is more stable than say an F5 with the Vlock on the back which might be heavier.

--
Colin My F3 (F3+vlock+Shuttle+DP6) balances - aka walk with no hands but is too heavy. You might get best balance by moving the monitor forward which should enable you to move the camera back..

S
 
morgan_moore said:
Vibration and motion are affected by mass and position. Aka Inertia. KE=1/2MVsquared

So a brick on the shoulder is less stable than 2 1/2 bricks 0.2m for and aft of the shoulder.

Splitting the masses has a huge affect because of the square factor. Simple steadicam physics.

So a spread light rig (eg a 700+Vlock on rods) is more stable than say an F5 with the Vlock on the back which might be heavier.

--
Colin My F3 (F3+vlock+Shuttle+DP6) balances - aka walk with no hands but is too heavy. You might get best balance by moving the monitor forward which should enable you to move the camera back..

S
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LOL...hate to get started on some esoteric discussion of physics, but, Morgan you got it wrong.
KE is kinetic energy, which applies to the intrinsic energy of a linearly moving mass. In this case, one of the appropriate equations is a formula that describes the frequency or period of harmonic motion. In this case, Angular Frequency = Spring constant / mass. The spring constant is your body. Clearly from this equation, as the mass increases the Angular frequency goes down....and as your body tires, the spring constant decreases and the angular frequency goes up, up, up....a mixed bag.

A good demonstration of the principle is to take a ride in an old piece of detroit iron, like a cadillac, and notice how much smoother the ride is than, say a Morris Mini-Cooper. For sure, the Mini can turn quicker because you're translating less mass, but, the Caddy will smooth out all those road bumps.
 
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Its not really on topic so Ill try to leave it but three masses organised like a T (steadicam) is 'smoother' than a single point mass of the same total mass, given two equal 'point masses' the heavier one is indeed more 'stable', the suqare law does however make the distribution have the greater influence...

For example a GH4, some long rods and a Vlock at the back should be pretty stable

S
 
morgan_moore said:
Its not really on topic so Ill try to leave it but three masses organised like a T (steadicam) is 'smoother' than a single point mass of the same total mass, given two equal 'point masses' the heavier one is indeed more 'stable', the suqare law does however make the distribution have the greater influence...

For example a GH4, some long rods and a Vlock at the back should be pretty stable

S
Click to expand...

Unfortunately it doesn't work like that in the real world because the pivot point is not placed perfectly in the centre of the mass, it's off-set: on a Steadicam the gimbal is 2-3 inches below the sled (BTW the Steadicam is more like an I than a T: camera sits for and aft at the top and at the bottom the monitor is fore and the battery/counterweight is aft, anyway..) and on the shoulder the pivot is below the camera, at the shoulder.

The problem with masses further away from the CoG in these situations is that the effective distance between them and the CoG changes when the camera/sled tilts or rolls (i.e. When you tilt up the horizontal distance between the battery and the CoG decreases). If the two large masses are equally distances from the pivot, this is no problem. However if they're not (because you're using a lighter counterbalance further away) then the relative change in distance is different. Leverage then causes the forces they exert on the pivot to change: throwing the unit off balance and creating additional instability.

As I recall that's pretty much the difference between static and dynamic balance. The point being, that the effect is smaller if the masses are distributed closer together - and ideally on the same axis.

Which I guess explains why no one designs ergonomic cameras anymore - as it's so darn complicated!

i wills say heavier is definitely better than lighter in terms of Steadicam. Additional weight excepted, it's a lot easier to operate an Epic on an ultra rig than a 5D on a pilot. You tilt an Ultra forward and it just stays there. Try the same with a pilot ad it flops all over the place...
 
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