Potential syncing organizational nightmare in the works

parallactic-pictures

parallactic-pictures

Active member
Hi everyone,

I used to post a lot here a few years back in regards to my Canon 7D. This is the first time I'm posting here as an editor. A friend of my directed a short film. Sound was handled on a separate source (Tascam DR-100, I believe). I'm serving as the editor, cutting the whole project on Final Cut X. I'm in the final stages now of having a near-locked cut. I just have to sync all the audio.

Basically, he has two folders on the drive he gave me (one called Music and one called Audio). Together, they comprise all the raw audio from every shot in the film (about 500+ files). Now, since the numbering system on the Tascam audio files is different from the MOV files of the Canon 7D they shot it on (of course), I have no idea how to start the seemingly monumental task of syncing all of this. I know that the actual syncing step in FCX is easy, but I've never done audio work like this. This was a very run-and-fun film shoot, so there's no audio logs for selects.

Would I essentially have to just listen to every single audio file to hear the slate so I knew what scene/shot/take I was even dealing with? Or is there some easier way to find the accompanying 50 of so selects I need to sync to my Project's timeline?

Thanks.
 
After you finish cursing him and threatening to ax murder him for not properly organizing the audio files then yes, you'll have to listen to every take to hear the slate call as far as I know unless you use one of the dual eyes, plural eyes, whatever they're called software solutions.

I sync each clip as it goes on the timeline. If you did it that way you probably would have found a sequence that made it easier. "Ok, scene 5 shot 3 take 1 goes with audio 0000011, so take 2 should be audio 0000012".
 
Well, I've used Plural Eyes before on Final Cut Pro, and FCX has it sort of baked into the system already. But as far as I know, that only works if you know what audio clip to grab first. Is there a way with a program like that to import all the audio files into my project and have it scan all their waveforms in order to match and sync them to the video files? Seems like something I can see someone creating, yet it also sounds like a miracle program.
 
My first question would be, "Why didn't you sync the audio and video clips before editing?"

Unless you're dealing with a high-end, timecode-based workflow, syncing after the fact is really too late in the game. I work with DSLR footage and non-sync audio, and the first thing I do with the files is to sync audio to video and lock each clip to its new audio, then drag the clips into a new bin (or new bins). These are the merged clips I use to edit, so that production audio is in there from the start.

Poor organization and file management/labeling during production can certainly create a headache for post, but now you're past the point where the slates really matter as much or will be as useful. The other guy should have re-named audio files with scene and take, at the very least. But yeah... you're probably going to have to listen through all of them to find the ones you've used for picture, and manually cut them in as best you can. I've not used PluralEyes or DualEyes (or FCP X, for that matter), so I don't know how well they function in an after-the-fact situation like this.

As a "hindsight is 20/20" measure, it's pretty easy to create a sound report chart that should be used during production, that notes the recorder's file name, the scene and take, and what the audio source is on each channel (boom, lav, etc.), and whether it's dialog or nats or FX or ____. There should also be a space for the mixer/recordist to make notes about that take (false start, mic problems, bad take, good take, etc.). That report is worth its weight in gold in post-production, especially with DSLR and non-sync sound.
 
parallactic-pictures said:
Hi everyone,

I used to post a lot here a few years back in regards to my Canon 7D. This is the first time I'm posting here as an editor. A friend of my directed a short film. Sound was handled on a separate source (Tascam DR-100, I believe). I'm serving as the editor, cutting the whole project on Final Cut X. I'm in the final stages now of having a near-locked cut. I just have to sync all the audio.

Basically, he has two folders on the drive he gave me (one called Music and one called Audio). Together, they comprise all the raw audio from every shot in the film (about 500+ files). Now, since the numbering system on the Tascam audio files is different from the MOV files of the Canon 7D they shot it on (of course), I have no idea how to start the seemingly monumental task of syncing all of this. I know that the actual syncing step in FCX is easy, but I've never done audio work like this. This was a very run-and-fun film shoot, so there's no audio logs for selects.

Would I essentially have to just listen to every single audio file to hear the slate so I knew what scene/shot/take I was even dealing with? Or is there some easier way to find the accompanying 50 of so selects I need to sync to my Project's timeline?

Thanks.
Click to expand...

The official title of the person recording such in formation is 'script supervisor'... the name of the files from the camer(s), and audio recorder(s) should be noted in a log... slows up production tremendously... but does at least attempt to address your current problem.

I've recently seen mention of a production work category of 'data wrangler', which I did for a recent 48 hour project. I would take the camera memory cards, the audio recorder's cards, archive them as soon as shooting permitted. Then I'd get with the person who was logging same info in the script note book, and the make sure I had an approximate match up...

The word is discipline... sometimes the 'camera person' would delete a 'shot' because it wasn't 'right'... fortunately I had archived all the 'important footage', and so what this did was only introduce questions as to...

Why is there no 0073.MOV (or whatever...) when I had all the clips assembled ready to hand off to the editors.

Once the editors had the separate clips, log of video filenames matched up with audio file names. They were able to use 'plural eyes' to sync up the audio...

Oh, yeah... using the slate was a hit or miss deal... initially the director/camera people didn't have one... I just happened to have my trusty iPad "Movie Slate" app... so for some set of shots they were slated... oh yeah... on reviewing the footage... sometimes several of the camera operators wouldn't have the slate even in the shot... as in they didn't tell me the couldn't see the slate, so I could move it to where it was visible...

So, yell at your friend on a couple of counts...
 
<<My first question would be, "Why didn't you sync the audio and video clips before editing?"

Unless you're dealing with a high-end, timecode-based workflow, syncing after the fact is really too late in the game. I work with DSLR footage and non-sync audio, and the first thing I do with the files is to sync audio to video and lock each clip to its new audio, then drag the clips into a new bin (or new bins). These are the merged clips I use to edit, so that production audio is in there from the start.>>

I hear ya, Alex, but that would not have changed the inherent problem I'm still facing: that no matter what, even if I did this all beforehand, I'd still have to sit and listen to about 500 individual audio files to listen to all the slates an make notes on what the file's scene, shot and take was. In hindsight, it seems like the these notes/logs should have been kept on set (although, with the pressure and time constraints the 3 man crew were under with the location, I sort of get why it didn't) or the Sound Recordist should have listened to them all after and rename the files.

I'll wait and hope that someone can chime in with information about a Plural Eyes-type program that can maybe scan a slew of files for waveforms and match it up to the according video files. But I'm doubtful at this point.
 
No actually it would have been much quicker. Now you have little clips that are not in the order they were when shot so it is a LOT more work.

I don't know if this works in FCPX but in earlier versions you could take the original clips, sync the sound for those takes (you only need to do this for the takes you actually used). Marry the new sound to the clips and then take your edited project and relink to the clips you married the new sound to and it all should show up with the "new sound". You should also be able to use the numbering OR time stamps on the files to know which goes to which. They both probably numbered sequentially and if the clocks were set then both also stamped a time and date on each file.

Even if this works out not to be a horrendous problem the one thing you should take away is that the time to start thinking about sound is "as soon as you start", if not before. You got all the way through the edit with out knowing IF you could get the sound in sync! Bad choice.

IF you can't relink in FCPX or the files have lost their meta data this could take months of mind numbing drudge to sort out.

But I have to smile a little. This is usually the place where the person that caused the trouble (the picture editor) hands it off to the poor schmuck (the sound editor) and says "you sort it out".

It's also the place where the director tels you that it HAS to be finished in a week to make the XYZ submission deadline ;~)
 
Well, the problem is that the Director went and renamed all the files to their corresponding Scenes/Takes. So like MVI_8067.MOV became EST WOODS MVI_8067.MOV or Sc 1B T5 (Dame CU) MVI_7966.MOV. And then to make matters worse, he put them all into individual folders, per scene. So the basic root structure of all the original video files is now gone. Hence I don't have a clear order that things were shot in, in order to then correspond them to a structure order for the Audio files.

I did have the idea of putting this all into List Mode and look at the Time on each file, but a Sound Recorder's take will never be as long or short as the Cameraman's video take. So that idea is sort of out the window too.
 
parallactic-pictures said:
I'll wait and hope that someone can chime in with information about a Plural Eyes-type program that can maybe scan a slew of files for waveforms and match it up to the according video files. But I'm doubtful at this point.
Click to expand...

I was under the impression that's what 'Plural Eyes' did, take multiple sources and match them up.

A couple of questions... do the video and audio files have 'reasonable' time stamps, such that you can find a delta, then 'guess' that the video file with a time stamp of X, matches the approximate time audio file Y was captured... This could eliminate having to listen to all 500 as some sort of marathon, but just listen to a few files, or Plural Eyes can only match a few files at a time, match up 'near contemporary' files.

If of course the time stamps are lost because of someone not setting the recorder/camera date, or during copy from the media to archive... well, then your sort of left with the ascending file name numbers...
 
parallactic-pictures said:
Well, the problem is that the Director went and renamed all the files to their corresponding Scenes/Takes. So like MVI_8067.MOV became EST WOODS MVI_8067.MOV or Sc 1B T5 (Dame CU) MVI_7966.MOV. And then to make matters worse, he put them all into individual folders, per scene. So the basic root structure of all the original video files is now gone. Hence I don't have a clear order that things were shot in, in order to then correspond them to a structure order for the Audio files.

I did have the idea of putting this all into List Mode and look at the Time on each file, but a Sound Recorder's take will never be as long or short as the Cameraman's video take. So that idea is sort of out the window too.
Click to expand...

If the naming convention maintained the original sequence number, perhaps you can match that up with a corresponding audio sequence number, and 'guess' from there.

That is if the naming was consistent in including the original sequence numbers...

I use Mac OS, and so for large sets of 'stills' that the Wife willynilly name, but still maintained the camera sequence number, I would write a Perl script to break out the sequence number, rename the file to be SEQUNCENUMBER_XXXX...WHATEVER....JPG.

And then the files would be in reasonable ascending sorting order, to continue my part of the division of labor... which was mostly housekeeping/cleanup/findinglostfiles... etc.
 
j1clark@ucsd.edu said:
I was under the impression that's what 'Plural Eyes' did, take multiple sources and match them up.
Click to expand...

Not quite. Plural eyes is designed to be used before you edit and if I remember correctly it really wants the order of sound files and video files to be the same. It's doing the syncing not finding the file.

DualEyes though is supposed to work after the edit.
 
parallactic-pictures said:
I did have the idea of putting this all into List Mode and look at the Time on each file, but a Sound Recorder's take will never be as long or short as the Cameraman's video take. So that idea is sort of out the window too.
Click to expand...

It doesn't matter that they don't match exactly. If you have a 10 min video clip that starts June 4th at 10:15 then the sound file that has a time stamp in that overlaps that is going to be your sound file. It doesn't help with the "sync" but at least you will know which clip goes to which.

Since he moved stuff and renamed them you may have lost the original time stamp on the video but you can still get a bit closer using the shot list. If scene 1a, b, c and 5, a,b,c,...,z were shot on June 4th then you know that sound clips with that date belong to one of those scenes. If you know which take you need you can narrow it down further (if it's the last take then it's the last sound file from that scene).
 
Noiz2 said:
Not quite. Plural eyes is designed to be used before you edit and if I remember correctly it really wants the order of sound files and video files to be the same. It's doing the syncing not finding the file.

DualEyes though is supposed to work after the edit.
Click to expand...


My only experience, recently, of someone using either was for this 48 hour project, and I do recall hearing something to the effect of 'it sync'd the wrong clip'... So I guess I thought they were feeding the program multiple audio clips and it locked on to the 'wrong one'...

I'm convinced at the moment that slating and logging may be better... if at some point in time someone transfer NSA style voice print matching to commercial uses, with ordinary hardware... perhaps then one can just shoot willynilly and let the software figure it all out.

On the other hand if slating and logging are 'difficult'... then perhaps getting an 'all in one' camera that has reasonable image and sound... slating and logging are still valuable... but one wouldn't have the rather large set of match up possibilities...
 
At this point, I think I'm going to have the director help me organize the audio clips to their video selects, via the Time Stamps. This is still going to be extremely tedious though. The folder that has his video selects no longer lets me actually sort by Date Create or Modified. I can only assume it's because he renamed the files. That part isn't a big deal though; as he can just Command I (Get Info) on each file to get its Creation Date / Time. The bigger problem is, he had two Sound Recordists. The one guy had a Tascam DR100, and his time stamps appear to be good and accurate. The other guy though has file all dated 1999 (in file format STE-109). Timestamps completely off. So yeah, this is gonna be fun. Going to have to go off file sizes and clip duration for those ones.

Thanks, all, for your help on this. Live and learn.
 
It's called: "s*%t happens"... But don't worry you'll learn from it.

As said before: FIRST SYNC then edit... so first sync first sync...oh yeah..first sync.

Now, have the director and maybe producer also if there is wake up at 5am every day to organise the files because the did not wanted to "loose" time during shooting... ok..now they loose about 2 or 3 days to match everything, which is also about 500 / 700$ studiotime.. but ok...

Don't blame it to much on the soundguy itself... if you have 7 people against you when you come up with "shouldn't we log the files etc ?" and only thing you hear is "WE HAVE TO MOVE ON !!!!" then at the end you also would say "yeah ok...pwoo pwoo pwoo pwoo pwoo !!" (I typed the pwoo's myself, out of inspiration :-p, thank you who once invented the pwoos)

Oh yes and rule nr 548486: cameras NEVER have the exact date and time....never....
 
I hate to bring in more bad news to watch out for, but here's a thread about the Canon 5d's and 7d's recording the audio early (about 1-2 frames early):

http://forums.creativecow.net/thread/325/172

I'm not saying that this will apply to you but it's something to watch out for. I had this same issue happen to me on a documentary (shot with a 7d) about 2 months ago. The pic editor sync'd the audio with plural eyes, but when we talked about this issue, they did in fact see that the visual clap did not match the waveform O_o

... I ended up nudging the audio by two frames in post production. I wonder if they fixed this?
 
parallactic-pictures said:
The other guy though has file all dated 1999 (in file format STE-109).
Click to expand...

My Zoom H4 gives that sort of name convention... But in the production class I took a few years ago, the fellow the instructor had in to give us a presentation on 'sound capture'... emphatically stated that every use of the recorder required a check on the 'current date/time', and I think it's required to be set after every battery change, as he had a Zoom H4 for the demonstration.
 
dre83 said:
Don't blame it to much on the soundguy itself... if you have 7 people against you when you come up with "shouldn't we log the files etc ?" and only thing you hear is "WE HAVE TO MOVE ON !!!!" then at the end you also would say "yeah ok...pwoo pwoo pwoo pwoo pwoo !!"
Click to expand...

It is responsible maintenance and operation of sound gear to check date, time, and file naming convention on a digital recorder at the start of every shoot day. I keep a sound report pad with me, and if the pace is too fast to move with that I always have a small memo pad to mark down file name vs. scene/take. You can even go back and type up a file list after the shoot day has wrapped. Hand that to the director (always keep a copy on file as a safety) and I assure you s/he will be grateful when it comes time for post.

In the world of lower-cost recorders, I am a huge fan of the Fostex FR2-LE. One of the best features it offers: scene/take file naming convention. It takes a few seconds to switch the scene and reset to take 1, but it automatically moves to the next take with stop and record.

dre83 said:
Oh yes and rule nr 548486: cameras NEVER have the exact date and time....never....
Click to expand...

My camera does. It may not be exact to the second, GMT, but it's pretty danged close. And just like audio, it is responsible maintenance and operation of a digital camera to have these things in line before every shoot day.
 
I dont know what suite you use but if its FCP just give Pluraleyes a try - do it on a duplicate sequence

It will probably get 80%-90% of it right

The is a check box, clips are in order, uncheck it

S
 
ryanjf said:
I hate to bring in more bad news to watch out for, but here's a thread about the Canon 5d's and 7d's recording the audio early (about 1-2 frames early)...
Click to expand...

Yup. T2i does it, too. I never got into using PluralEyes, and prefer to sync manually. I never use the scratch track from the camera when working with DSLR footage, and instead use only the visual slate.
 
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