Indeed. Since I'm a personal user, not a commercial one, the $60 applies to me. I'm testing Reaper now.
Post processing Poly-wav files recorded on Zoom F4
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Indeed. Since I'm a personal user, not a commercial one, the $60 applies to me. I'm testing Reaper now.
Thanks, Rick.
I have both the Audacity and Sound Forge Pro 11- none of them is a full-fledged DAW, especially for video/movies sound track.
Nowadays I edit videos on DaVinci Resolve. The Fairlight in the latest version is quite capable DAW, though right now I'm not sure whether it will suffice my needs. It may, and it may not.
Now I'm testing and learning Reaper.
Few days ago I purchased Vegas Pro 15, because it was offered for a very low price. I'll have to look into it both as a video editor and a DAW.
Rick R
Veteran
The automation options in Vegas is significant as well.. that took me a while to get comfortable with, aside from the basic volume/pan track envelopes. It's a bit confusing automating the many plug-in parameters, especially when you have all of tracks with plug ins. Some are mind boggling, but fortunately they can be copy/pasted. The master, sub-masters and pre/post FX sends & returns can all be automated as well. Unfortunately VP never did have side-chaining or OMF support but third-party converters such as AATranslater works good with it. Sometimes AAF import/export works.. sometimes it doesn't. Unfortunately as well, Magix removed the Dolby Pro AC-3 encoder. The Dolby AC-3 studio version is still included, but there's not many parameter options.
Noiz2
Sound Ninja
Well kind of. Reaper has a non expiring trial And the $60 license is good till you are making over $20,000 a year in sound so those two cover a lot of people on this list. And one could argue that the newly added Fairlight DAW section of Black Magic Resolve is a tie at $0.
One thing I just became aware of, because I try to upgrade as rarely as possible, is that ProTools has gone to a subscription only model. That pretty much kills my future with ProTools after my current system keels over.
This is really topic drift but...
Reaper is pretty good, but lacks OMF, or any other transfer format, so it's usefull ness for post work is problematic on any but the most bare bones no budget films. If you are on Windows there is a third party app that can take a bunch of formats and convert between them and with that you can sort of import by converting to a reaper project. In the end you could convert back to a PT session. But much like OMF what will transfer is pretty limited to clips and positions and some level automation. The last part is not that big a deal till you are working on bigger shows since it doesn't come up unless you are passing the session to another editor or a ProTools centric mix stage.
The Fairlight section I have not played heavily with yet, but once it's fully implemented it should be a serious player as the original Fairlight was. And Resolve can open and save as just about every transfer format ever used.
Reaper is a 60 days trial. Enough for me learn it and see how useful it may be for my needs.
For me, doing all the sound editing on my own, it isn't a drawback.
Noiz2
Sound Ninja
You can keep extending the trial so it doesn't really expire. If you use it pay for it so they can stay solvent.
The things I don't like about Reaper are mostly, I think, related to it not being ProTools, which I am very fast with. The OMF is the biggest "real" issue, and one they seem very uninterested in fixing. If you do post on anything but the lightest or OMB kind of projects you NEED a way to import the picture editors tracks, and OMF and AAF are the only widely available ways to do that.
The things I don't like about Reaper are mostly, I think, related to it not being ProTools, which I am very fast with. The OMF is the biggest "real" issue, and one they seem very uninterested in fixing. If you do post on anything but the lightest or OMB kind of projects you NEED a way to import the picture editors tracks, and OMF and AAF are the only widely available ways to do that.
Rick R
Veteran
As I previously stated, I use 'AATranslator' for importing OMFs into Vegas Pro, which works well. As for importing into Reaper, according to the AATranslate website:
"Convert sessions to/from Ableton Live, Ardour, Audiofile, Audition, Auria, Cool Edit Pro, Capture, Cubase, DAR, Digital Performer, Fairlight, Final Cut Pro, Grass Valley, Harrison Mixbus, Hindenburg (Journalist/Pro/Educator/Broadcaster), i-Movie, Lightworks, Logic, Logic Pro, Media Composer/Adrenaline, N-Track, Nuendo, Paris, Premiere, ProTools, Pyramix, Reaper, Sadie, Samplitude/Sequoia, SAW Studio, Sonar, Soundscape, Soundtrack Pro, Studio One, Studio Live, Symphony, Tascam MX2424, Tracktion, TripleDat, Vegas, Waveframe, Wavelab".
I think AATranslate's builder is occasionally on this forum, so maybe he can elaborate. For sending audio back to a video editor, it;s normally a fully mixed file with TC, a sync pop or just starting at 00:00:00:00 . I've exported AAFs from Vegas Pro to PTs and MC without issue, but it never works the other way around (PT to VP). I used to use Cui Bono Soft's OMF converter before SSL hijacked it.
"Convert sessions to/from Ableton Live, Ardour, Audiofile, Audition, Auria, Cool Edit Pro, Capture, Cubase, DAR, Digital Performer, Fairlight, Final Cut Pro, Grass Valley, Harrison Mixbus, Hindenburg (Journalist/Pro/Educator/Broadcaster), i-Movie, Lightworks, Logic, Logic Pro, Media Composer/Adrenaline, N-Track, Nuendo, Paris, Premiere, ProTools, Pyramix, Reaper, Sadie, Samplitude/Sequoia, SAW Studio, Sonar, Soundscape, Soundtrack Pro, Studio One, Studio Live, Symphony, Tascam MX2424, Tracktion, TripleDat, Vegas, Waveframe, Wavelab".
I think AATranslate's builder is occasionally on this forum, so maybe he can elaborate. For sending audio back to a video editor, it;s normally a fully mixed file with TC, a sync pop or just starting at 00:00:00:00 . I've exported AAFs from Vegas Pro to PTs and MC without issue, but it never works the other way around (PT to VP). I used to use Cui Bono Soft's OMF converter before SSL hijacked it.
Noiz2
Sound Ninja
The catch being AATranslator is Windows only. Not a total killer for Mac users since it supposedly does OK under the various Apps that let you run Windows apps. And in a pinch you could create a windows partition and boot in Windows, but both are kind of a PITA and add a fair amount to the cost and learning curve.
On the other hand it still probably beats the cost of a PT subscription in not too long.
On the other hand it still probably beats the cost of a PT subscription in not too long.
*Free* for the trial version (which is basically the same, just will nag you a teeny tiny amount).
Jim Feeley
Veteran
Ya, Vordio does look interesting. David or anyone: Know someone's who's used it?
Noiz2
Sound Ninja
Thanks for the link, interesting option.
To answer the differences question.
AAT translates back and forth from many different formats, OMF, AAF, ProTools session files Reaper Projects, XML etc. It covers a lot of ground and if I were running a shop with lots of gigs coming from all over it looks to be the better app to have because of that versatility.
Vordio only does XML to Reaper and back, so it is really a Reaper utility not a general purpose tool. If you want to send a project you started in Reaper to someone on ProTools Vordio wouldn't work. There are third party tools that could do the XML to ProTools session but Vordio only gets you to the XML part.
OMF/AAF have been the standard for sending to sound post, but a lot of lower budget editors don't send to sound post much and OMF/AAF can sometimes be tricky if you don't know how to do it. XML on the other hand is pretty common in picture editing since it is what is used to send stuff to VFX and color correction. So the odds are the picture editor is going to have an easier time sending you an XML than an OMF.
Vordio also seems to have a way to conform built in, though it looks like maybe they are really just talking about sound sending clips back which is not really the way it generally works. But I haven't played with it so? If it can actually auto conform that would be a huge plus. I have conforming software for ProTools that I got from the developer when it was still beta, but if I had to buy it now it's like $1,000.
For those that don't know. In most films with budgets sound starts before picture is finished. As picture changes things they send new video and change notes and XML files and the sound team "conforms" their time lines to match the changes. Manually this is a real PITA and can take days. Auto conform software looks at the change note or XML and slices, dices, and moves parts around to conform your time line. The whole process can take less than 1/2 hour. In both cases you have to check every slice and dice to make sure there are not any weird glitches and "fix" things that got hosed in the change, so you still have a bunch of time to put in but auto conform saves a ton of time.
Most no budget films don't start sound post till picture is finished, though I still get changes after the fact "just a tiny change", that takes half a day to straighten out...
Also, one could open the XML in Resolve and create an OMF to go to ProTools. Not as smooth as sending a session but it will get the job done.
To answer the differences question.
AAT translates back and forth from many different formats, OMF, AAF, ProTools session files Reaper Projects, XML etc. It covers a lot of ground and if I were running a shop with lots of gigs coming from all over it looks to be the better app to have because of that versatility.
Vordio only does XML to Reaper and back, so it is really a Reaper utility not a general purpose tool. If you want to send a project you started in Reaper to someone on ProTools Vordio wouldn't work. There are third party tools that could do the XML to ProTools session but Vordio only gets you to the XML part.
OMF/AAF have been the standard for sending to sound post, but a lot of lower budget editors don't send to sound post much and OMF/AAF can sometimes be tricky if you don't know how to do it. XML on the other hand is pretty common in picture editing since it is what is used to send stuff to VFX and color correction. So the odds are the picture editor is going to have an easier time sending you an XML than an OMF.
Vordio also seems to have a way to conform built in, though it looks like maybe they are really just talking about sound sending clips back which is not really the way it generally works. But I haven't played with it so? If it can actually auto conform that would be a huge plus. I have conforming software for ProTools that I got from the developer when it was still beta, but if I had to buy it now it's like $1,000.
For those that don't know. In most films with budgets sound starts before picture is finished. As picture changes things they send new video and change notes and XML files and the sound team "conforms" their time lines to match the changes. Manually this is a real PITA and can take days. Auto conform software looks at the change note or XML and slices, dices, and moves parts around to conform your time line. The whole process can take less than 1/2 hour. In both cases you have to check every slice and dice to make sure there are not any weird glitches and "fix" things that got hosed in the change, so you still have a bunch of time to put in but auto conform saves a ton of time.
Most no budget films don't start sound post till picture is finished, though I still get changes after the fact "just a tiny change", that takes half a day to straighten out...
Also, one could open the XML in Resolve and create an OMF to go to ProTools. Not as smooth as sending a session but it will get the job done.
Round trip from Resolve to Reaper and back
Round trip from Resolve to Reaper and back
I looked at Reaper and it looks like a very capable DAW. I like it. Should I use it, I'll definitely pay for it.
In my case, there is only one editor for both picture and sound, on one station, a Windows PC. The picture will be edited on DaVinci Resolve, maybe on Vegas Pro. I intend the audio to be manipulated in Reaper, and then send it back to Resolve, or Vegas, to be conformed there, with the manipulated audio.
What is the procedure and what will I need to make this round trip?
Round trip from Resolve to Reaper and back
I looked at Reaper and it looks like a very capable DAW. I like it. Should I use it, I'll definitely pay for it.
In my case, there is only one editor for both picture and sound, on one station, a Windows PC. The picture will be edited on DaVinci Resolve, maybe on Vegas Pro. I intend the audio to be manipulated in Reaper, and then send it back to Resolve, or Vegas, to be conformed there, with the manipulated audio.
What is the procedure and what will I need to make this round trip?
Rick R
Veteran
I haven't used Reaper in a while, but it used to open and save the Vegas Pro EDL formats at that time (.veg and .txt). Now it also supports AAF (flaky though) and <.xml> via a script utility. The VP media pool files the files can be exported as well with a <.veg> EDL, but they're not embedded like OMF/AAF. Sending audio mixes back to an editor is usually via a standard PCM (AIFF, WAVE or BWF with TC stamp. The same for stem tracks (foreign language versions and such).
I tried to get into Reaper. I don't know why, but it just didn't sit right with me. It isn't bad, just not my cup of tea. Maybe I've been using Pro Tools for so long and am super fast with it that anything else just seems weird to me. I spent a good amount of time with Audition, and for my work (making my own youtube videos for dvestore) cutting video in premiere and doing any audio work in Audition has been fine, but it's been really simple stuff. Nothing like what I used to work on when I was a sound editor. For that stuff I'd want to work in pro tools, and even if I do VO work, like some of my tutorial videos, I do that stuff in Pro Tools. I can edit around my flubs way faster in pro tools than audition.
I tried the Beta of the new Davinci Resolve and was pretty over-whelmed. I don't have a week to just sit down and mess around with something. The capabilities seem cool with the integrated fairlight, but I didn't get a chance to really run it down and see what it could do. I have to admit, I find the idea of being able to edit video and then hit a button and now I'm cutting audio, all within the same program really appealing. The amount of time that could save and the amount of headaches that can alleviate is pretty cool, but it has to be incredibly functional to be fully adopted. Small facilities that do everything in house might use it, but I can't see post sound houses wanting to install software that half of the storage of that software is going to be taken up with features they'll never use. It'd be interesting to see if they could bust out the Fairlight side on its own if it works well. We'll see. For now I'm sticking with Audition and Pro Tools.
I tried the Beta of the new Davinci Resolve and was pretty over-whelmed. I don't have a week to just sit down and mess around with something. The capabilities seem cool with the integrated fairlight, but I didn't get a chance to really run it down and see what it could do. I have to admit, I find the idea of being able to edit video and then hit a button and now I'm cutting audio, all within the same program really appealing. The amount of time that could save and the amount of headaches that can alleviate is pretty cool, but it has to be incredibly functional to be fully adopted. Small facilities that do everything in house might use it, but I can't see post sound houses wanting to install software that half of the storage of that software is going to be taken up with features they'll never use. It'd be interesting to see if they could bust out the Fairlight side on its own if it works well. We'll see. For now I'm sticking with Audition and Pro Tools.
Noiz2
Sound Ninja
Fairlight was it's own thing, and used to be one of the players but PT just really took over and dominated, at least in SFX. I have no idea what you are talking about with "half the storage"? In PT sound editors use maybe 1/10 of the features. MIDI and all the music centric features are 99% untouched. So having features you never use won't be a hinderance at all. Inertia will be the hinderance. Music folks are generally about ten years ahead of where film sound is at, in my experience. Mostly because it is really hard to turn a big boat and major film productions are really big boats. PT got in because "smaller boat" facilities started using it because it was cheap enough that they could make editors supply their own systems and thus reduce overhead. For a facility Rent-Ware make a bit of sense but for freelancers it's more problematic. Avid has worked really hard to transform DigiDesign, which was pretty user friendly, into an arm of AVID which was never very user friendly. The only reason FCP got any time on some bigger films is because AVID was so hated. Not the software but the company. So ProTools biggest enemy is probably Avid.
The biggest influence maybe how much of a lock Avid keeps on the picture side of things. If a lot of picture editors end up moving to Resolve then? But nothing moves fast in the (big) film world so even if that happens it could be 5 - 10 years before one sees a significant shift. Walter Murch might be the canary, as he was for FCP. If you start seeing his films using Resolve then...
I am kind of with you on Reaper. It's going to take a lot of work for me to get up to speed, and they are not really that interested in the post market so? They are also probably too small to be a contender in big film post, assuming they wanted to get in.
For me (and probably big productions) is that I need to know that I will be able to open an old session a couple of years from now. If you are doing stuff that comes and goes and you don't keep any archives then it doesn't matter, but if you are doing projects you may need to reopen years down the road small companies and companies that may just decide they don't want to play anymore are a real PITA.
Noiz2
Sound Ninja
You can go traditional, which is basically the same in big budget or small, which is to send your clips to sound post via OMF/AAF or XML, etc. Do the sound edit and mix. Chase any picture changes, in sound post with change notes etc. Then mix and send the final mix back to be synced with picture.
It looks like the VORDIO software also has the option to send an XML back to the picture editing software. So in that case you could edit and send back them mix in your NLE. While maybe that would work for dialog or documentary's NLE's in general don't have great audio features so why would you mix in weaker software? But you could say do some dialog cleanup and send those "clean" clips back to the picture edit.?
Personally If I was wanting to do that kind of interactive back and forth I would look hard at Resolve to see if the Fairlight section fit's your needs, because then you have none of the headaches of going back and forth and loosing plugins etc in the round tripping.
In round tripping to someone else's software there is always things you can't send. The clips and basic edits are not a problem but volume automation sometimes is and plugins almost never translate.
Get yourself AATranslator and/or Vordio. That will allow you to pass projects back and forth between either of your NLEs and your DAW.
I'm just getting into learning Reaper myself (as it seems like a useful skill to gain, as I'm a location sound recordist).
REAPER might be a "new player" compared to an old Dinosaur like Pro Tools, but actually it has been around for fair few years already. I doubt it is going anywhere else any time soon! It is here to stay. Also the man behind it has been in the audio software game even longer, he is the guy who made WinAMP! :-o