PORTABLE RECORDERS: resume & things must need to know about gemini,ninja,sfv,cinedeck

Actually I like the Cinemartin best, because it is not only a recorder, but a complete mobile workstation. Kind of a super iPad with 3G SDI in-and outputs.

Since it runs on Windows I can start editing in my hotel room (just ad a mouse, keyboard and maybe a monitor) or even in the plane on my way back home.

I can do what I do with a recorder, a (powerful) laptop and more. I see it as a portable production system, not so much as only a recorder.

Most bang for the buck in my book.

The Cinedeck can also do all that, but with a lesser monitor and twice the price.

Frank
 
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Might be useful to ad in compatibility with camera systems. A lot of these devices are very new, unreleased, or not yet battle tested. There will be a lot of teething problems. Also Pulldown and ability to record Progressive are important elements.

Units like the Nanoflash and the Ki Pro ought to get some recognition in terms of their acceptance by broadcasters (the Nano is recognized by most) and real world usage with common cameras.

Does the Cinemartin actually exist? Might be handy to include whether they actually exist or are still vaporware.
 
... and that big list of Frank's doesn't even record the Sound Devices PIX 220 and 240 either... external recorders are a crazy hot market right now.
 
I gonna update that rooster from time to time and put it on my website for download.
If anyone finds something wrong or missing, please drop me a line.

Thanks, Frank
 
any info on the release date of Cinemartin? I think it's one of the most interesting and yet open to third party codec. But Windows....meh, they could have just gone with Linux. I don't think I will ever use filed recorder as portable workstation.
 
Tony Hernandez said:
CONVERGENT DESIGN GEMINI : 6.000$ - 6.995$, 5.795€ (price without drives 795$ for 256GB)
4:4:4 UNCOMPRESSED ONLY

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PROS:
4:4:4, 2x drives, small

CONS:
1.8 drives, no compressed

ISSUES:
Recording 4:4:4 may drop frames
Propietary Media drives

Be carefull with gemini: my technicall skills demostrate that this device cannot go for long term recordings.
I will explain why: Tthe only one manufacturer that provides 1.8 ssd drives, sata 6G, and with up to 512GB, that also sell to OEMs .. is M*****-C******

These SSDs, again the only ones unless CD decides to buy more than 100.000 units or create its own SSD company, are topped out at 240MB/s. But manufacturer said maximum 240MB/s (the required data rate for 4:4:4 at 1080p24) as opposed to CD that was said that 240MB/s is the minimum (on some forum).

You can't go with a recorder that needs sustained 240MBps with a drive that tops max. at this rate. You need a more speed drive to avoid issues.

If i'm wrong tell me ¿Why Convergent Design was not show real live record on gemini at NAB ? ¿Why they delay shipping to August? I tell you, cause currently there are no 1.8 ssd drives that supports 4:4:4 1080p recording without issues.

They may have luck recording 5 minutes, but filling the drive (with lets say 22 minutes of video or in its 87% capacity) will make the drive loose performace (so may drop frames)

Again, i hope they find the solution.
But until they resolve or prove technically, tech. the convergent design gemini isn't capable of 4:4:4 1080p24 record


MY OPINION:
Wait until C.D. prove that this device is able to ingest 4:4:4 without frames drop issues on all space of ssd's, or at least with proven technical specifications (a more speed drives), when then, will be the best for uncompressed only.
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Dear Tony,

As Director of Sale and Marketing for Convergent Design, I wish to correct a few points that you have made.

1. The MSRP (US) price of the Gemini 4:4:4 is $6295 and Street Price is $5995.

2. The price of the 256 GB SSD is $749 and the price for 512 GB SSD is $1349.

3. While the name of our product is Gemini 4:4:4, we record 4:2:2 and 4:4:4, both uncompressed. And one can provide 4:4:4 and we can record 4:2:2 if desired.

If one wants compressed, one can use our transfer station (included in the above price) and Apple Compressor, Adobe Media Encoder, or other software to obtain any flavor of compresion that you may want.

This "First Encode" compression step occurs in 1/2 real-time (30 minutes of footage takes 15 minutes).

3. You mention that the Gemini 4:4:4 can not do long-term recordings.

The recording times, of course, vary with the flavor of video that one want to record.

1080p24, 4:4:4, 10-Bit:

One 256 GB SSD = 22.5 minutes
Two 256 GB SSD's or one 512 GB SSD = 45 minutes
Two 512 GB SSD's = 90 minutes

If one records in 4:2:2, the recording times will be longer.

If one records in higher frame rates, the recording times will be shorter.

But, of course the Gemini 4:4:4 supports "Hot Swapping" and transfer of footage to an appopriate computer system (not using USB 2.0 disk drives) occurs at 1/3 real time, 45 minutes of footage transfers in 15 minutes.

4. The Gemini 4:4:4 will not drop frames, even when recording in 4:4:4.

5. I am sorry, but your 240 MBps (Megabytes per second) figure is wrong.

The Gemini 4:4:4, with our SSD's currently writes video at a minimum sustained write speed of 260 Megabytes per second from when the SSD is empty to when the SSD is 100% full.

While others record that SSD's slow down as the get close to being full, we have the technology to ensure that they do not slow down.

Also, please be aware that we will be writing to two SSD's, when approproriate, for certain very high data rate video modes.

In 1080p24, 4:4:4 10-Bit, only one SSD is required and we can write to two SSD's simultaneously creating two master copies.

But, in 1080p60, 4:2:2, 10-Bit, for example, we will be writing part of the data to one and part to the other. Then as we transfer the data to your computer we will combine the data back into one file.

6. Our SSD's are not propriatary. These are standard items purchased from a leading SSD manufacturer. These are very high performance units that this manufacturer sells to OEM's and they are not avilable through normal retail channels, nor are the spec's available on the internet at this time.

We will be buying these drives in very large quantities.

We are not disclosing the manufacturer's name as one can expect technology to change.

What is currently the very best SSD at this time may not be the best a few months from now.
Thus we are reserving the right to provide the very best for our customers.

Each and every drive that we offer to our customers will be tested, then burned in at 80 degress C for over 24 hours (while under test), then heat cycled (while under test).

It is vitally important to us and to the reputation of our Gemini 4:4:4 that the media be reliable. Thus we are ensuring that full tested SSD's will be offered to our customers.

7. We had 10 people demonstrating our products in our booth.

I am sorry if you did not see the Gemini 4:4:4 recording and playing back.

I personally demonstrated this many times. I did not start doing this until Tuesday, no one asked me on Monday.

Yes, the Gemini 4:4:4 can record and playback 1080p 4:4:4.

Our Sony F3 was not updated to full 4:4:4 mode (using Sony's latest firmware update) until NAB.

And to repeat, the Gemini 4:4:4 will work without dropping frames and will not slow down as the SSD fills up. It is common knowledge that SSD's slow down as they fill up. But, we are not using common technology.

8. We use 1.8" SSD's to keep the size of our recorder to a minimum.

Our Gemini 4:4:4 is about the size of the Small HD DP6 monitor

9. Under "Pros", I would list our supurb 5.0", 800 Nits, 900 to 1 Contrast Ratio, 170 degree viewing angle in both Horizontal and Vertical planes.

I demonstrated that our monitor does not require the camera operator to be directly in front of the monitor, looking straight at it to obtain a good image.

The color does not shift when one views the monitor from an angle, nor does it lose contrast, nor is there a brightness shift. This is an ideal monitor for on-camera use.

10. Under "Pros", I would also list our low power consumption, 8 to 15 watts.

11. Under "Pros", I would list S-Log, Log-C, and Viewing LUT support as well as the ability to record "native S-Log or other log footage" while simultaneously recording a copy with the user's LUT burned-in.

12. Our original goal was to ship by the end of July, 2011.

We had over 300 pre-orders prior to NAB, and we wanted to be absolutely certain that we would meet our goal, so we decided to change our published date to August, 2011.

Please note, we may still ship initial units by the end of July.

(But, as with most every other company, some of our parts come from Japan, and world conditions may affect our delivery goal.)
 
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One thing that really interests me with the PIX series (especially the 240), and I looked through the thread quickly so I don't know if it's been mentioned, is that the PIX recorders can multiplex audio from the onboard inputs and audio in an SDI stream.

In our case we can output AES audio from a production mixer either directly into a pix 240 and combine in with audio from the camera, or even use a device like a Blackmagic Audio embedder ($475 or so) to embed up to 8 channels of AES audio into a camera's HD-SDI stream and still be able to use either the 4 AES inputs available on the unit or its two analog inputs. It effectively becomes a 16-track audio recorder as well. At the very least for many of our productions we'd be able to track 4-6 isolated inputs and a stereo or mono mix.

I imagine the feature will also find it's way into other units if it's not there already (I just don't know.)

UPDATE: I got an e-mail from Oleg Kaizerman asking for credit for this finding, while I think we both came to similar conclusions - he was definitely the one who got the confirmation from SD in their user forum. Additionally, I would have suggested the AJA embedder (at twice the price!!) if it wasn't for him so big thanks!
 
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Thanks Dan,

I updated the pros for your device.
I updated the 260 MBps.
I updated your statement about ability to record 4:4:4 1080p24

Thanks Petros,

I updated multiplex audio feature.
Did you know the price of PIX 240 ??
 
Hi Tony-
I am amazed at your ability to evaluate all these recorders, which are not available to the rest of us. Regarding the Gemini 444 recorder specifically, have you actually tested the SSD drives we plan to use in the product? If so, would you mind sharing the results, so as to enlighten us?

We have conducted our own internal recording tests across an entire drive, recording at data-rates well above 1080p24 4:4:4. We're very confident our SSDs will perform as advertised. We did show some limited record and playback at NAB, but the code is not stable at this time, so our demos were very limited.

Please be careful about drawing conclusions about products you have not tested. We have many years of experience developing video recorders. Our current nanoFlash, has arguable the best Compact Flash implementation of any available recorder (highest data-rate, hot-swap, spanning across files and drives, etc). I am confident we can repeat a similar performance achievement using SSD media.

Mike Schell
Convergent Design
 
I'm pretty sure no one really thought he had evaluated all of these products (most of which are as yet unreleased) - rather he was attempting an academic comparison using pre-release info and rumors to start categorizing this growing field.

As a happy Nanoflash user I have no doubt CD will be able to pull off everything they have stated about the Gemini (and more! the nanoflash gets better with each firmware update).

However, as there is so much interest in the area of portable recorders I would say that these types of lists are inevitable. I would recommend that the infamous 'Rooster list' should also include cameras that have been tested with the recorders (and that are known to work). CD tests a lot of cameras in their labs, so they have a big head-start in this area. That way if someone was looking at the list they could scan down and see that, for instance, the nanoflash has a proven track record with everything from the HV30 (interlaced & progressive) up to the F3.

At the end of the day a lot of people are going to want to buy something that has been proven in the field, and proven to work with their particular set-up.
 
Hi Mike,

I send you a PM as for test scores of your drives.

Mike Schell said:
We have conducted our own internal recording tests across an entire drive, recording at data-rates well above 1080p24 4:4:4. We're very confident our SSDs will perform as advertised.
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Good !, i hope they perform as well all time.

Mike Schell said:
We did show some limited record and playback at NAB, but the code is not stable at this time, so our demos were very limited.
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Hmnn, code not stable at this time .. anyway i think you'lll resolve, best !

Mike Schell said:
We have many years of experience developing video recorders. Our current nanoFlash, has arguable the best Compact Flash implementation of any available recorder (highest data-rate, hot-swap, spanning across files and drives, etc).
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I know, i wish you the best,


Now let the people discuss about portable recorders, i don't want to discuss more about your words, i think i made the correct changes, if not, please send me a PM.
I will wait until you made all code stable and until you show recording tests.
 
Just marking in here..... Will read up later... Just looking for something to record long times on EX1 without killing me on the price.
 
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