PORTABLE RECORDERS: resume & things must need to know about gemini,ninja,sfv,cinedeck

T

Tony Hernandez

Well-known member
PORTABLE RECORDERS: resume & things must need to know about gemini,ninja,sfv,cinedeck

Hi,
I write a resume features of current or soon available portable recorders.
I write this thread for show PROS, CONS & some ISSUES may have each device.

Most of this recorders have some issues not resolved at this time, but they sell as new or are taking pre-orders. So i think is a mandatory for me, to let you guys know information about that recorders.

Let's start with ..


BLACK-MAGIC DESIGN HYPERDECK : 350$ - 325€
4:2:2 UNCOMPRESSED ONLY

HyperDeckShuttleLeft34-300x122.jpg


This is the last device was announced.

PROS:
Super affordable..

CONS:
Not as small as it seems (based on 2.5 drive lenght it is like 210mm wide)
1 hour battery only.
No monitor.

ISSUES:
What about remaining disk space ¿?
What will happen when the drive is filled ¿?

MY OPINION:
For that budget segment (4:2:2) a only uncompressed.. hmnn will be best an uncompressed & compressed recorder, but for that price is almost impossible.




ATOMOS NINJA: 1000$ - 800€ (price without drives)
4:2:2 COMPRESSED ONLY - MAC ONLY

atomos_ninja2-300x229.jpg


PROS:
A good device, affordable, very small, 2 batteries

ISSUES:
It is not able to playback the recorded clips
Some others have reported issues with audio sync. on recorder clips


MY OPINION:
I think they will resolve the current issues, but i prefer to not buy one until they resolve problems

UPDATE: Seems that a firmware update allows for playback at slow resolution.
Great !!, now remains the rec button to be at the monitor screen but this is a minor




FAST FORWARD SIDEKICK: 2.500€
4:2:2 COMPRESSED ONLY - MAC ONLY

timthumb.php


PROS:
HDMI + HDSDI

CONS:
Small monitor
Price ¿?




SOUND DEVICES PIX 240: ??? PRICE
4:2:2 COMPRESSED ONLY

Sound_Devices_Pix240-300x152.jpg


PROS:
HDMI + HDSDI
XLR input, multiplex audio from to SDI
eSata


CONS:
??





CONVERGENT DESIGN GEMINI : 5.995$ - 6.295$, 5.795€ (price without drives 745$ for 256GB)
4:2:2 or 4:4:4 UNCOMPRESSED ONLY

image.php


PROS:
4:2:2 or 4:4:4, 2x drives, small, hi-bright lcd, luts, low consump.

CONS:
1.8 drives, no compressed

ISSUES:
Recording 4:4:4 may drop frames
Propietary Media drives


Notes: If not C.D. tell me i'm wrong, The only one manufacturer that provides 1.8 ssd drives, sata 6G, and with up to 512GB, that also sell to OEMs .. is M*****-C******

These SSDs, again the only ones unless CD decides to buy more than 100.000 units or create its own SSD company, are topped out at 260MB/s. But manufacturer said maximum 260MB/s as opposed to CD that was said that 260MB/s is the minimum (on some forum).

You can't go with a recorder that needs sustained (sustained means minimum) 240MBps with a drive that tops max. at 260MBps (maximum). You need a more speed drives to avoid issues, or at may opinion, wait until C.D proves they made tech. solution for that issue.

Convergent Design was not able to show real full live record on gemini at NAB, but they show some limited record and playback.
Release date was delay to August. Currently there are no 1.8 ssd drives alone that supports 4:4:4 1080p recording without issues.


MY OPINION:
Wait until C.D. prove that this device is able to ingest 4:4:4 without frames drop issues on all space of ssd's, or at least with proven technical specifications (a more speed drives), when then, will be the best for uncompressed only.


UPDATE: C.D. updates that gemini will be able to record 4:4:4 1080p24 well. But no info or correction about ssd manufacturer.
I prefeer to wait until their code will be stable and until their demos will be not limited.
Thats my opinion, anyway remember that c.d. is a company with years of experience (at least in flash memory recorders).





CINEMARTIN SFVe & SFV : 3000€ -- 5.000€ (both with drives)
4:2:2 OR 4:4:4 BOTH UNCOMPRESSED OR COMPRESSED OPEN CODEC

cinemartin_sfv.jpg

*prototype photo, retouch by german user

You need to know that i'm a colaborator of the martin guys team

PROS:
4:2:2 or 4:4:4, 3x Drives, 2.5' std. wide available, raid for allow spinning drives or fast speed
Uncompressed or compressed (cineform, lagarith, mpeg2 up to 300mbps,..)

CONS:
A litle bit more bigger than cinedeck, VMount batteries are a bit expensive

MY OPINION:
Wait until they disclose more info (expected soon), but an uncompressed & hq. compressed is my prefered device




CINEDECK : 8.000$ -- 11.000$
4:4:4 UNCOMPRESSED OR COMPRESSED

cinedecksmall.jpg


PROS:
7" LCD, uncompressed cineform by default, portable computer

CONS:
1X drive only, Uncompressed recording requires to buy extra +3.000$

ISSUES:
Detected on uncompressed recordings, this is why they'd launched an extra solution (+3000$) for uncompressed

MY OPINION: A 2x drive will be best



MY FINAL CONCLUSIONS:

Be carefull as if you're thinking in buy one of them, cause i don't understand why so many companies are accepting pre-orders for a devices that have not been demostrated its capacities or sell with some serious issues.

I prefer to watch a video to see recording & playback features (both mandatory) prior to order any one, or test in-hand on some shop (a must if you can).

Lets open to discuss.., more than 1 year ago there was no one portable HQ. HD recorder, and from now will be a lot.

UPDATE:
Here's a features comparison pdf made by Frank: link

What are your prefered device ? What you will like to have on ?
Are you good with prores only, or you prefer cineform. HQ. Compressed or uncompressed ?
 
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You've had a chance to use all of these devices to come to the conclusions you state? That's pretty impressive. I'd love to know how you managed to get your hands on each of these recorders.
 
He might not had a change to test the devices but seems he have strong knownledgement at least of hard drives.
Can anyone tell if he's wrong ?

As for my whishes, an small compressed & uncompressed for mac & pc.
 
Well, I know he's wrong about one thing… The Ninja can playback clips on-screen. I know because I took one out and shot with it the other night in Las Vegas. The playback is lower-resolution, but the clips played back fine on the Ninja I had.

And to call out that the Gemini "may drop frames" as an "issue" is based on zero hands-on experience with the product, nor any real first-hand knowledge of the engineering Convergent is working to put into it.
 
you're also forgetting the sidekick, and the sound devices, along with ki pro mini. out of all the single link recorders, I think sound devices has the total winner. ssd OR compact flash. if you already own super fast 600x CF cards, no point in buying SSDs unless you need the long record times. and it's got every pro feature, great sound recording, built in genlock, built in ambient. hdmi and sdi outputs are always hot, and working. pro res, and dnxhd optional. priced 500 bux more than the ki pro mini, but does a lot more.
 
Im not wrong. I can get you the phone and local address of a shop here in Spain that have the ninja in stock. The unit they have is not capable of playback.

I will update info with the sidekick & kipro mini.

Seems sidekick can be a winner, did you know if it supports uncompressed ? prices?
 
Please read the firmware update page of the Atomos site. It clearly says that v01 of the firmware can only play low quality playback.

http://www.atomos.com/ninja/firmware/


Tony Hernandez said:
Im not wrong. I can get you the phone and local address of a shop here in Spain that have the ninja in stock. The unit they have is not capable of playback.

I will update info with the sidekick & kipro mini.

Seems sidekick can be a winner, did you know if it supports uncompressed ? prices?
Click to expand...
 
Tony Hernandez said:
Im not wrong. I can get you the phone and local address of a shop here in Spain that have the ninja in stock. The unit they have is not capable of playback.

I will update info with the sidekick & kipro mini.

Seems sidekick can be a winner, did you know if it supports uncompressed ? prices?
Click to expand...

They may have a unit that is incapable of playback for some reason, but as I said, clips played back perfectly fine on the unit I had.
 
http://www.ffv.com/products/high-definition/sidekick-hd/

sidekick is one of those things i'm a bit torn on, pricing is the same as the sound device i believe. and sound device is a company I know and trust, and their built in pre amps and the ambient, plus the other options makes it more of the unit to get. but I really do love the more analog controls of the sidekick, and the scroll wheel. fast, easy, a 10 year old can figure it out.

sidekick also had hdmi and sdi output hot at all times, and will in the future have dnxhd optional. if they priced this on release closer to price of ki pro mini, this will def do well.
 
Im not wrong. I can get you the phone and local address of a shop here in Spain that have the ninja in stock. The unit they have is not capable of playback.
Click to expand...

I'm sorry, sir, but you are wrong on this. The Ninja has always been able to play back recorded footage on its excellent screen. Currently, playback is in software, and is blocky, but still lets you verify that you've captured video. Very soon we will have a release that will allow full quality playback. I do hold a reasonably senior position in the company so I would ask you to defer to my knowledge on this issue.

Finally, I would say that while it is good to give comparisons between devices, all of these products are complex and multi-faceted. A few words of description are unlikely to do any of them justice, especially without prolonged, real-world, hands-on experience.

Dave Shapton
President
Atomos EMEA
 
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Perhaps the confusion is a result of my understanding that the Ninja can't playback via an external monitor but it can play back on it's on board screen?
 
Hi Dave,
I think your product is good, i know about your role in atomos, just great !.
I was only said the true, that the ninja unit on Spain playbacks within the same device integrated lcd but with the image being freeze, realentation, slowish, ... but no way to reproduce well the video inside.
I admire your job, skills and position so please don't hesitate to tell me if i can do something for you.
I updated the first post, maybe the shop has a bad unit, maybe the firmware other user had mentioned will resolve that bug .. anyway i think you have a great team and you will bring to the users, one of the best portable pro-res recorders.
 
Tony Hernandez said:
Hi Dave,
I think your product is good, i know about your role in atomos, just great !.
I was only said the true, that the ninja unit on Spain playbacks within the same device integrated lcd but with the image being freeze, realentation, slowish, ... but no way to reproduce well the video inside.
I admire your job, skills and position so please don't hesitate to tell me if i can do something for you.
I updated the first post, maybe the shop has a bad unit, maybe the firmware other user had mentioned will resolve that bug .. anyway i think you have a great team and you will bring to the users, one of the best portable pro-res recorders.
Click to expand...

Tony, it's very nice of you to say all of this, and I completely take on board what you are saying: you were referring to our "preview" software playback mode, which is indeed less than ideal. We're all looking forward to getting the fix for this soon.

Dave Shapton
Atomos
 
From what I saw at NAB, seems like the Sound Devices PIX 240 & 220 can playback and scrub to their LCDs and HDSDI/HDMI outputs.
 
I have an eye out for the Samurai but would love both HDMI and HD SDI inputs. There are a couple of things I like about the Atomos recorders.

1. Integrated power solution and long run time.
2. A display to verify what's recorded.
3. A decent codec that is workable and possible more to come. Even Prores LT is enough in many cases. And yes I work with WIN7/OS X and prores works on both platforms to decode.
 
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