portable recorder set up for live concert recording

paulears said:
Here's an example of how I do it - main stereo out from the system into one camera, room sound on the other, and use both in post - getting the blend right helps the crowd sound better than they really were, and makes for a much more live sound - this is just a rough pre-edit before sorting out the images - just for approval.

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The sound on this is great! I'm assuming you used some fancy expensive mics for the room sound.
 
When recording live musical shows I would suggest trying to get all the tracks you use on one recorder, and only use camera audio for lining up your final mix in the timeline.

Why? Drift. If you have audio of music recorded on 2 different recorders (camera/multitrack), the drift will be heard as phasing, and simply can't be corrected enough for the audio to sound unaffected. I have made the mistake of recording a stereo mic with the camera, then trying to blend that with a board feed recorded into a DR-680, or Sony D-50, but it just doesn't work for long record times. You must record all the tracks you'll be mixing later on one recorder, then use the camera audio only for lining up files. After that you mute the camera audio in the timeline.

If you already have recorded on the camera with a stereo mic in the audience, you can turn that down to about 30% - 40% and keep the vibe, and that will somewhat hide the out-of-phase-ness of the blended audio. But really if you put that stereo mic into the same recorder as the board feed (given you have 4 or more tracks to record on) your audio will sound much tighter, then if you slide that audience mic's track up a little to correct for the time audio takes to get from the stage to the mic, your sound will be tighter yet.
 
Thanks Chadfish. For my recording, I plan to only use about 60-90 seconds of any given song, so I'm hoping phasing won't be an issue. At some point, it's clear I'll need to hire a sound guy to do this stuff. Since I'm on my own and new at this (and not charging much money to the client) I'm trying to figure out the least expensive method to get a decent sound. My plan today is:

Board mix to camera 1.
Live room mix from onboard shotgun mic to camera 2 (probably just for reference)
Stereo mix to portable recorder (probably the tascam DR-100.)

It the mix from the DR-100 is good enough, then I'll use that.

Otherwise, I'll mix some of the board feed in with the DR-100.

By the way, Chad, I watched your lavalier test on Youtube, which helped me pick a mic. (ended up with the Tram). Thanks!

- Tom
 
Hi Tom. I lost your message in my email inbox! I don't know if you already did the show, but I think the board feed would give you a better quality sound of the music, then blend in some room mic just so the board feed doesn't sound so sterile. Phasing may not be much of an issue that way. Let us know how the recording went!
 
Hey guys,

Sorry for digging up an old thread, but I'm in a similar recording situation so I thought I'd just add it here. It's for a gospel band and we'll be shooting them play in a church. I'm not 100% sure on the size of the place, but I think it's small-medium size. Will find out soon. Full isolated multitracking is out of the question, but I do have some good equipment at my fingertips for this shoot. I plan on mixing a feed from the board with a couple of room mics.

We're shooting with 2 AF100's (with 2 XLR's each), and a Sound Devices 552 recorder/mixer. Does the SD also have drift problems like cheaper end stuff like Zoom H4n's? I haven't researched mics yet, but I planned on renting a pair of good stereo condensers and placing them in the room. Hopefully I will be able to catch a sound check before they start, to listen for best placement.

Anyways, I'm just trying to wrap my head around the best way to do this. I guess the main thing I'd like to get some insight on is will the SD Mixer/Recorder stay in sync with an AF100 for an hour (maybe less) of recording? I could run it all into the Sound Devices, but I'd lose the stereo mixes of both the room and the board (in other words, using 4 inputs, I'd I could throw the right and left channel from the board mix all to the left, and pan the 2 room mics all the way to the right, so I could still mix room and board later, but neither would be stereo). A better option, if they stay in sync without phasing, would be send the board stereo mix to the AF100 keeping it stereo, and the condenser pair record into the SD mixer/recorder.

For that matter, I could just bypass the Sound Devices and send the stereo pair to the other AF100, for the sake of them staying in sync better with each other? SD Mixer would sound better, but would 2 AF100's sync better than an AF and a SD mixer/recorder?

I've run around in a circle here. Any help would be great! The shoot is in about a week and half.

Scott
 
There's no guarantee any two or more recorders will stay perfectly in sync without a mater sync reference, wordclock, genlock or tri-sync. That said you could record audio to all and use PluaralEyes to sync them, though P'Eyes will not eliminate drift over time so you would have to tweak it occasionally or re-sync by song, segment or by other means.
2 trk.s alone on the 552 does not give you much to work with if something is not right. Optimally you should 'split' all the stage mics between recording and house PA. (if there is one) or at least get a feed from the house PA in addition to your 'room' mics.
There has been much discussion on this forum about this, so you may want to search.
 
If you are recording music, I strongly suggest you keep all the tracks on one recorder. There will be phase issues and the sound will get weird very quickly if the sound is spread over multiple recorders. You can get away with mixing recording devices if it's dialogue, but for music you will have a nightmare with the sound, even if the files appear to line up, even with plural eyes, going slightly out of phase will compromise the mix. Best way to do it short of having discreet tracks for everything is what's called a "Matrix" recording. Get a stereo board feed which will give you the voices nice and clean, then put a stereo mic close to the band to ambiently capture the stage sound, and things the PA might not be putting through because they may be loud enough on their own. If you have 6 tracks you could focus on a couple more things on stage if you like. But keep it all in one recorder. Realistically you want at least 4 tracks.

Here's a matrix recording (4 tracks) I just did of a jazz band. Stereo mic at the stage, mixed with a stereo board feed.
 
To add to what I said, as far as the video goes the drift will be minimal in relation to the audio. If you do see that the video gets off enough to actually see it, you can just cut out a couple of frames to get it back. Hide that cut with a 2nd camera angle, or do it between songs. The main thing is that all the final audio is recorded on one device.
 
2 trk.s alone on the 552 does not give you much to work with if something is not right. Optimally you should 'split' all the stage mics between recording and house PA. (if there is one) or at least get a feed from the house PA in addition to your 'room' mics.
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I definitely plan on getting a feed from the board to mix in with my room mics. I'll continue exploring the boards for more info, thanks for the help.

If you are recording music, I strongly suggest you keep all the tracks on one recorder. There will be phase issues and the sound will get weird very quickly if the sound is spread over multiple recorders.
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Here's what my concern was, and correct me if this is the wrong mindset... I'd wanted to just capture the stereo room mics on the 552 and not have anything else mixed in with it (looking at renting either a pair of Sennheiser ME66's placed in the back of the room, or AKG 451's a little closer. Might rent both and test them to see which sounds better if I have the luxury of time). I wanted to have the board feed go right into an AF100 so that will be separate as well. That way when we take it to post we'll have a stereo board mix and stereo room mix to play with. Or, I could record them all on the SD 552, but I'd essentially have to make mixing decisions right there on the spot, right? Since the 552 outputs to a mixed 2 channel stereo track.

In other words, I'm battling having more mixing options later but risking audio drift, versus deciding on a mix on the spot and having them all recording onto the same device for security.

If I did try out the first option presented (recording on both the SD 552 and AF100), and had my AF100 shooter cut in between songs would this make it less prone to experiencing phasing in post? There's no reason this particular shoot has to be continuous.

Scott
 
Either way is not a good option. Mixing on the spot will not be good because you can't hear the mix well enough when you are surrounded by the actual live audio - even with headphones on. And if you record 2 channels on a recorder, and 2 more on a camera, it's not a "risk" that you will have phase issues, it's an absolute fact. And shotgun mics are a terrible choice for recording music - especially ME66 shotguns. The AKG 451s will be nice if you put them close to the stage. If you put any mics at the back of the room, they will just sound like crap. That's the worst place to put a mic - no matter how high quality they are. It's just physics. If you will not get a 4 track recorder, then just record the board feed and hope that's enough. You can try to mix in a stereo pair placed at the stage and recorded on a separate device, but if you do mix it really low to hide the phase. Have someone who's mixed music before do it. You can get a good recording from just a board feed. Especially if you master the track well, and if everything was miked well by the live sound person. Just remember there are no shortcuts to this.
 
I understand that there are no shortcuts to yield perfect results. I'm just trying to make the best of a low budget shoot, knowing full well it will not sound like an individually tracked and professionally mixed live music recording.

The problem with just obtaining a board feed and nothing else is that it being in a church, I'd be afraid that it won't be a proper mix, but rather a mix of just those instruments not loud enough on their own (ie; vocals, keys, etc). Guitar and drums may be pretty low in the mix if they've got a loud amp on stage and a drumset that carries on its own. For this reason I'd rather the board feed be my back up which I record on a separate device, and mix it in if needed (at a lower level to hopefully minimize phasing). The stereo mic recording would be my main source. I think I can get that mic set up pretty close to the stage.

Post audio, FYI will be mixed by a professional sound engineer who has done music before.

Any major problems here, aside from the obvious short comings of the set up?
 
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Oh, and I will be bringing the AKG 451 pair. It sounds like I'll be able to get it pretty close up. The church unfortunately is about 5 hours away so I'm not able to personally see it until we're there shooting, but I've been told it won't be a problem.

Scott
 
I'm curious now, Chadfish... If I were to rent a multitrack recorder for this, do you have something you'd recommend? Again, I don't think it's in budget (before they brought me along for the trip they were just going to be using a Zoom H4n, so it's already a stretch), but I'd like to at least check into it.

Here is a list of possible equipment from a local rental house:
http://www.rocknrollrentals.com/recording.html

On the low end they've got a Zoom multitrack recorder:
http://www.zoom.co.jp/english/products/r16/

And on the high end:
http://www.alesis.com/hd24xr

On the cheaper option, the multiple tracks would be nice but I'd be afraid of the preamps just not sounding as good as the Sound Devices.

Scott
 
I'd go for the Tascam DR680 for 62.00. Very clean, very good. I absolutely vouch for their quality. And really is a lous situation a little preamp noise won't matter (not that the DR-680 has any noticeable noise).

In the case of having no multitrack recorder, and if you are unsure about the board feed, just record both the board feed as well as the stereo mics. Then choose which one sounds better and go with that. If we're talking a big gospel chorus of voices, chances are you'll get a decent recording with the stereo mic set up. If that's the situation, I'd try to get a seat a few rows back, or if there is a center isle, put the mics up in an X/Y configuration in the center (or off to one side of the isle) as high as you can get them 7 - 10 feet high and you'll capture the voices strongly as well as nice room ambiance. Be sure you don't have people tripping on the stand and ruining the recording. Up front of the stage is cool too. I just feel out the situation. It depends on how big the band/choir is, how far back they are from the front of the stage.

If you do have a 4 track (leave the Zoom stuff alone) and we are NOT talking about a big choir, but a band on stage (no time to go back and read again) then a board feed and the stereo mics close up to the band.

Keep in mind that a board feed is usually "line" level, and mics are "mic" level. So whatever you are recording on needs the line level option for the board feed, and if not then you need in-line attenuators to pad down the signal. You also need to have the right connections to get from the board to your device. Usually there is a "Tape Out" on boards, that is RCA female. So you need RCA male to XLR. I strongly suggest getting the number of the sound person and calling them days ahead of time to see what they can give you, or if they will work with you at all.

And one last thing: IF they are having a sound check, GO. Be there 15 minutes BEFORE the sound check and set up. Then you will know what you're getting.

Cheers.

I bought one of these and it's great. 6 analog tracks, but only 4 XLR inputs. You just buy a balanced 1/4" to xlr cable to open up the other 2 tracks.
 
Thanks Chadfish,

Your help is very appreciated. I checked into the multitrackers but they've opted to go with the simple set up with stereo mics. I was able to get my hands on another 2 track recorder and Rode NT4 cardioid stereo condensor. I borrowed this from a friend for free, so I'll record everything with that set up, simultaneously with my Sound Devices 552/rented Shure SM-81 stereo pair set up. This way I'll at least have 2 (hopefully) pretty decent recordings to choose from. I will also be recording a board feed into yet a 3rd device. I know it's not ideal, but at this point I figure as many options as I can give myself, the better. Best case scenario I can mix the board feed into one of the stereo mic recording (which ever sounds best), and make sure to keep the board level lower in the mix to help make the phasing not so obvious... Or if the board sounds better than the room mics, use the board as the main track and mix in the room recording at a lower level.

Worst case scenario, just go with whichever of the 3 sound best on their own. I'll definitely be bringing a box of cables and converters to be ready for the board output. I'll buy an RCA male to XLR tomorrow for the tape out. Thanks for your suggestion on that, I hadn't even thought of that.

Scott
 
"I'll buy an RCA male to XLR tomorrow for the tape out"
You will likely find 1/4" TRS outputs on the house PA board which will be nominally @ +4dB. RCA's are -10dB, which maybe too low for a +4dB line input, but too hot for mic level.. at least w/o a pad or a DI.
 
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