PMW-F3 and RED

Something tells me that the HDCAM-SR memory-recording unit is not cheap. B&H don't even list the price. And that thing is not even portable. Now, imagine how it will cost for the portable model.
 
That's a giant tape deck though. The memory-recorder should be much less (of course, that's "should", we won't know for sure until it's announced officially). Panasonic says that their AVC-Intra recording format is equivalent to D5-HD. A D5-HD tape deck is, what, $75,000? Yet you can record AVC-Intra on an HPG20, a memory-recorder unit that costs ~$4,500. Of course, that doesn't require Sony to make a comparable product, but it would seem like a reasonable approach. AVC-Intra on the HPG20 isn't a dual-link 4:4:4 system, so the Sony recorder will likely be quite a bit more, but I wouldn't expect it to be hugely expensive like an HDCAM-SR tape deck...
 
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The recorder Sony is developing that is matched for the F3 is stiull in development. There is a credible suggestion from a Sony rep stating in will cost less than the body of the F3 which sounds right given the competition out there. HDCAM-SR decks cost well into the 30,000 dollar range. The memory cost for the F3 recorder is the big question in my view. The recorder at 10 or so grand is cheap given it's level of functionality.
 
Postmaster said:
I never understand the stubbornness of a lot of post houses. For a relative small budget they could buy a PC and PremierePro CS5, that can handle Red material in realtime with ease. But most of them swear by FCP and AVID and refuse to use the proper software for the job.
Their idea of a "professional post workflow" is to transcode a - already highly compressed - lossy wavelet codec, to an other, highly compressed even more lossy non wavelet codec, before they can even work with it.

Frank
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I was the editor on it actually. cs5 wasn't an option. Client wanted a copy of the entire project when it came to an end, and specifically ASKED for FCP so their own in house people could go back into the project.

I've also had numerous issues with audio, timecode isn't accurate with r3d in premiere that has embedded audio. (you can check the reduser forums, it's there), plus at the time I was grading in apple color. premiere to color would have been a hinder, considering the clients wanted changes every other day. FCP was the way to go because there was a stable foundation in the workflow already. I still find Premiere a tad bit unrefined in certain areas. hopefully cs6 will route out the issues I personally had a problem with.

plus at the time, I had no rocket card, nor was I running a nvidia gpu at the time. running off native r3d and doing the things I had to do would have slowed down post even more. working with QT pro res offline files it allowed for a lot of versions a lot faster, and onlining with clipfinder was actually a breeze.

but it was really not having a rocket card that bogged me down. 1.5 TB of R3D to transcode, at a half debayer ( i could have done a lower debayer method but the client really didn't understand the concept of, it will look better when I'm done with it) took days to finish rendering out.

when you have to consider all these factors, client needs and the workflow for the project, there is no one solution. premiere just couldn't have done it on this one. I love red, I love r3d, but it IS a certain level of camera that requires a certain budget and forethought on how you're gonna get something done. The producer promised them RED, with a very short turn over for the rough cut, and didn't want to shell out the money for a rocket transcode. RED really wasn't the right tool for the job in that very instance.
 
Thanks for the clarification, Barry. I guess we'll just have to wait for Sony's announcement then.
 
Barry_Green said:
That's a giant tape deck though. The memory-recorder should be much less (of course, that's "should", we won't know for sure until it's announced officially). Panasonic says that their AVC-Intra recording format is equivalent to D5-HD. A D5-HD tape deck is, what, $75,000? Yet you can record AVC-Intra on an HPG20, a memory-recorder unit that costs ~$4,500. Of course, that doesn't require Sony to make a comparable product, but it would seem like a reasonable approach. AVC-Intra on the HPG20 isn't a dual-link 4:4:4 system, so the Sony recorder will likely be quite a bit more, but I wouldn't expect it to be hugely expensive like an HDCAM-SR tape deck...
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my question is, which I think is a good one. the solid state sr deck records to the sr solid state media. what does it record exactly? dpx? quicktime? it's own SR format? is it gonna be openly readable to a computer? do they have a separate reader to offload to? or do you need the deck itself to interface? I can't seem to find much info on it. it would be really silly if the card was just recording like "tape" and you had to play it out like tape.
 
No idea. Avid's MC 5.5 just announced support for HDCAM SR "Lite", which would presumably be the codec for the new recorder. If they're smart, they'll use SxS cards and record edit-ready MXF files. HDCAM-SR, the full version, is 440mbps of H.264, recorded on a tape. Sony says their SxS cards are fast enough to support that. I would assume HDCAM SR "Lite" will be a lower-bandwidth format, probably along the lines of AVC-Intra, at 100mbps or so.

But that's all speculation.
 
the sr recorder is using their new "1 tb sr memory" i just think it's a sxs card on steroids. which means a new type of card reader you're gonna have to get too. i wish they'd just use off the shelf SSD's that they recommend and call it a day...
 
Ah, right, I'd forgot that. Well, if it's 1tb, that might imply that it's using substantially more bandwidth, so it may be more on par with (or even the same as) HDCAM-SR then...
 
xmephestox said:
the sr recorder is using their new "1 tb sr memory" i just think it's a sxs card on steroids. which means a new type of card reader you're gonna have to get too. i wish they'd just use off the shelf SSD's that they recommend and call it a day...
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If they used off the shelf then it's no longer Sony. lol
 
xmephestox said:
when you have to consider all these factors, client needs and the workflow for the project, there is no one solution. premiere just couldn't have done it on this one. I love red, I love r3d, but it IS a certain level of camera that requires a certain budget and forethought on how you're gonna get something done. The producer promised them RED, with a very short turn over for the rough cut, and didn't want to shell out the money for a rocket transcode. RED really wasn't the right tool for the job in that very instance.
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Agreed. I can see where you coming from.


Frank
 
Barry_Green said:
Ah, right, I'd forgot that. Well, if it's 1tb, that might imply that it's using substantially more bandwidth, so it may be more on par with (or even the same as) HDCAM-SR then...
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From a 12-page expanded article on the Sony PMW-F3 in Film And Digital Times http://www.fdtimes.com/articles/ "Sony HDCAM SR solid state memory cards have been announced, with a capacity up to 1TB and sustainable transfer speeds
exceeding 5Gbps.
The SR-R1 Memory Recorder was announced at the recent F3 launch at USC School of Cinematic Arts. The SR-R1 will record onto solid state memory cards at 220Mbps and 440Mbps. The unit can handle Single Link 4:2:2, two HD-SDI outputs for 4:2:2 1080/60p, 3G and Dual Link RGB at 440Mbps, all of which the PMW-F3 can output to the SR-R1.
In addition, the SR Memory format has the capability of simultaneous dual stream recording, which opens up the possibility of 3D stereo shooting from two cameras (lefteye, right-eye) up to 30p onto one recorder and one Memory Card. This is the same core technology announced for Sony F35 and SRW9000PL cameras."

The Card looks a lot like a P2 card bigger than a SxS card
 
Postmaster said:
Oh, by the way, and don´t tell that James Cameron, he used CS5 on AVATAR.
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Not to edit the film. They used After Effects and Premiere on a lot of the VFX shots, but the film itself was cut on Avid.

"“Avatar” was cut on Avid Media Composer systems running software version 2.8.4. Even with the help of stalwart first assistant Jason Gaudio, the editing team did not want to risk upgrading their NLE software in mid-project despite the fact that Media Composers have been able to playback 3D sequences directly from the timeline ever since version 3.5. So when they wanted to view the 48 terabytes of footage on their Avid Isis storage system holding both left and right eye tracks, they had to run both dailies footage and cut sequences through a QuVIS Acuity 3D playback platform." http://www.tvtechnology.com/article/91722
 
xmephestox said:
I was the editor on it actually. cs5 wasn't an option. Client wanted a copy of the entire project when it came to an end, and specifically ASKED for FCP so their own in house people could go back into the project.

I've also had numerous issues with audio, timecode isn't accurate with r3d in premiere that has embedded audio. (you can check the reduser forums, it's there), plus at the time I was grading in apple color. premiere to color would have been a hinder, considering the clients wanted changes every other day. FCP was the way to go because there was a stable foundation in the workflow already. I still find Premiere a tad bit unrefined in certain areas. hopefully cs6 will route out the issues I personally had a problem with.

plus at the time, I had no rocket card, nor was I running a nvidia gpu at the time. running off native r3d and doing the things I had to do would have slowed down post even more. working with QT pro res offline files it allowed for a lot of versions a lot faster, and onlining with clipfinder was actually a breeze.

but it was really not having a rocket card that bogged me down. 1.5 TB of R3D to transcode, at a half debayer ( i could have done a lower debayer method but the client really didn't understand the concept of, it will look better when I'm done with it) took days to finish rendering out.

when you have to consider all these factors, client needs and the workflow for the project, there is no one solution. premiere just couldn't have done it on this one. I love red, I love r3d, but it IS a certain level of camera that requires a certain budget and forethought on how you're gonna get something done. The producer promised them RED, with a very short turn over for the rough cut, and didn't want to shell out the money for a rocket transcode. RED really wasn't the right tool for the job in that very instance.
Click to expand...


As a fellow editor, I must say that this is the most accurate summation of editing with RED I have seen written on a forum.
 
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