Stevet
Veteran
basspig, Was matt really set to infinity focus on those shots? It surely does not look it.
Matt, do you remember how far away were you when you shot those focus targets on the window?
PMW-EX usability/ short comings
- Thread starter Broad Reach Images
- Start date
basspig, Was matt really set to infinity focus on those shots? It surely does not look it.
Matt, do you remember how far away were you when you shot those focus targets on the window?
basspig
Veteran
Matt,
Your before AND after shots don't look all that drastically different to me. Both look as sharp or better than my EX1 AFTER repair. The before repair shots were so bad that you could see the blurring on the LCD panel! Imagine putting the EX1 into macro mode and focusing to within 1 inch and that's about how blurred my backfocus was on infinity at wide angle.
Were your test shots at full tele? They lack the telltale CA that other EX1s show at full tele. I've got tons of it. My lens only makes a decent picture between 20 and 70% zoom. Outside that range, it's CA city and blurred edges.
Regarding the Audio on the EX1:
I tested a few modes with the NT4 stereo X-Y mic yesterday and discovered that AUTO gain control overrides the input attenuator settings. I don't recommend using that mode as it will distort like crazy.
I do find it too easy to overload at low frequencies, unlike my Zoom H4 and it makes me suspect that there may be bass boost at the input, followed by bass cut downstream, sort of like preemphasis-deemphasis, which would lower the dynamic headroom like mad at low frequencies. Not sure why Sony doesn't know how to build a straight wire with gain preamp-A/D system without resorting to all this fancy DSP-based high gain circuitry.
With the AGC set to OFF, there is still a non-defeatable limiter circuit, which explains why I never can hit levels beyond 2 dots below the red dot on the meters. I could hear it with music las night. The only way to get around it was to set the input attentuators to -11dB and set the gain pots to 5. Then it sounded good with loud music with a lot of bass. The disadvantage with that setup is that for softer sounds you have to crank the gain up and that brings up considerable hiss.
Tried using a 9V battery in my NT4 and using LINE inputs, but the mic output is nowhere near enough to provide usable signal.
The bottom line is, if you're in loud environments, set the attenuators down around -11-20dB, as it will greatly reduce the choppy sound the EX1 produces with it's built-in fast-attack/fast-recovery limiters. I made a test clip with music playing at 130dB and varied the attenuator from -29dB to -11dB at the end of the clip and the heavy gain riding sound cleared up nicely. Yes, you CAN use the EX1 in environments where there is high SPLs, such as auto sound system SPL competitions, but you have to adjust the input attenuators accordingly or you'll get severe limiter action that doesn't sound pretty in the least.
I'll get that clip up on my site soon so ya'll can hear what I'm talking about.
Your before AND after shots don't look all that drastically different to me. Both look as sharp or better than my EX1 AFTER repair. The before repair shots were so bad that you could see the blurring on the LCD panel! Imagine putting the EX1 into macro mode and focusing to within 1 inch and that's about how blurred my backfocus was on infinity at wide angle.
Were your test shots at full tele? They lack the telltale CA that other EX1s show at full tele. I've got tons of it. My lens only makes a decent picture between 20 and 70% zoom. Outside that range, it's CA city and blurred edges.
Regarding the Audio on the EX1:
I tested a few modes with the NT4 stereo X-Y mic yesterday and discovered that AUTO gain control overrides the input attenuator settings. I don't recommend using that mode as it will distort like crazy.
I do find it too easy to overload at low frequencies, unlike my Zoom H4 and it makes me suspect that there may be bass boost at the input, followed by bass cut downstream, sort of like preemphasis-deemphasis, which would lower the dynamic headroom like mad at low frequencies. Not sure why Sony doesn't know how to build a straight wire with gain preamp-A/D system without resorting to all this fancy DSP-based high gain circuitry.
With the AGC set to OFF, there is still a non-defeatable limiter circuit, which explains why I never can hit levels beyond 2 dots below the red dot on the meters. I could hear it with music las night. The only way to get around it was to set the input attentuators to -11dB and set the gain pots to 5. Then it sounded good with loud music with a lot of bass. The disadvantage with that setup is that for softer sounds you have to crank the gain up and that brings up considerable hiss.
Tried using a 9V battery in my NT4 and using LINE inputs, but the mic output is nowhere near enough to provide usable signal.
The bottom line is, if you're in loud environments, set the attenuators down around -11-20dB, as it will greatly reduce the choppy sound the EX1 produces with it's built-in fast-attack/fast-recovery limiters. I made a test clip with music playing at 130dB and varied the attenuator from -29dB to -11dB at the end of the clip and the heavy gain riding sound cleared up nicely. Yes, you CAN use the EX1 in environments where there is high SPLs, such as auto sound system SPL competitions, but you have to adjust the input attenuators accordingly or you'll get severe limiter action that doesn't sound pretty in the least.
I'll get that clip up on my site soon so ya'll can hear what I'm talking about.
MattDavis
Well-known member
For the chart setup, I was 5 meters away.
If you've not seen it in action, the Auto Flange Back does do some fairly major things - like opening up the iris automatically, and whacking a lens element or three way out of kilter then dragging it back slowly until it finds an edge, it overshoots a bit, then snaps to that setting before returning the lens to what it thought was where you left it.
I think it's made as automatic as possible so 'enny fule' can do it. Even then, I'm sure I could muck it up. Certainly the 5 meter chart was a big difference, but the longer distance down the garden with trees 40 meters away helped finish things off.
MattDavis
Well-known member
Both those images are at the wide end. Yes, in high contrast images, I get CA too, but less than the stock Fujinon on the HD100 (and negligible breathing, hooray!). There is a bit of post trickery one can undertake to hide CA should the shot warrant it so I'm not quite ready to worry about it.
LOL!
That's great info, Mark. Thanks. Good to know the limiters are in there as one of my lines is conference recording with a donated line feed from the desk. Sometimes these can be a bit... variable. I was happy to drive levels manually on the Z1s knowing my six was covered if somebody coughed or somebody attempted to eat the floor mic, but I was disappointed that I couldn't find the limiter on the EX1 having expressly asked Sony if it did have one and been told it did.
So it DOES have one, but you can't turn it off, so there's no control for it, leading me to think that it didn't. Good to know before I went out and bought a good limiter, as I wouldn't risk recording without one. IOU Beer again.
astute
Member
There are two main things that got me annoyed:
No physical dial for shutter speeds
Shitty USB cover that doesn't really come off with the handle in front of it, SERIOUSLY, it SUCKS connecting it.
P.s. I also own an XH-A1 and a JVC GY-HD110. But the CA on the EX1 is very much okay, the JVC sucks in that. The canon on the other hand is a much more well thought out of a camera and is the most natural device that I know. The EX1 just rattles on all sides, but god I love the light sensitivity, the S&Q and the extreme sharpness
.
It's like having several girlfriends/ wifes
JVC GY-HD110 is the one that is very friendly but can also get these horrible mood swings, oh yea, and she gets sick all the time.
Canon XH-A1 is the live long companion, friendly, doesn't demand too much, and looks pretty okay with make up.
Sony PWM-EX1 is the hot girl you stole away from a much richer and smarter man. She is a real looker. Damn she is hot. But she is also pretty dim, and kinda hard to communicate with. But damn she is hot. Every guy wants her...Oki, all I want to say, the EX1 is the hot dumb blond.
No physical dial for shutter speeds
Shitty USB cover that doesn't really come off with the handle in front of it, SERIOUSLY, it SUCKS connecting it.
P.s. I also own an XH-A1 and a JVC GY-HD110. But the CA on the EX1 is very much okay, the JVC sucks in that. The canon on the other hand is a much more well thought out of a camera and is the most natural device that I know. The EX1 just rattles on all sides, but god I love the light sensitivity, the S&Q and the extreme sharpness
.It's like having several girlfriends/ wifes
JVC GY-HD110 is the one that is very friendly but can also get these horrible mood swings, oh yea, and she gets sick all the time.
Canon XH-A1 is the live long companion, friendly, doesn't demand too much, and looks pretty okay with make up.
Sony PWM-EX1 is the hot girl you stole away from a much richer and smarter man. She is a real looker. Damn she is hot. But she is also pretty dim, and kinda hard to communicate with. But damn she is hot. Every guy wants her...Oki, all I want to say, the EX1 is the hot dumb blond.
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MattDavis
Well-known member
10/10 for thread drift!
10/10 for thread drift!
LOL!
If my EX1 were a g/f, I'd place her in the slightly spacey camp too. Dumb? No. 'Out there'? Yes. Not quite the part that would be played by Geena Davis or Uma Thurman. More the Amelie sort of character with a touch of the 'savant'. I guess that makes the Z7 a sort of Agent Starling, but perhaps metaphors shouldn't be stretched too far...
10/10 for thread drift!
LOL!
If my EX1 were a g/f, I'd place her in the slightly spacey camp too. Dumb? No. 'Out there'? Yes. Not quite the part that would be played by Geena Davis or Uma Thurman. More the Amelie sort of character with a touch of the 'savant'. I guess that makes the Z7 a sort of Agent Starling, but perhaps metaphors shouldn't be stretched too far...
basspig
Veteran
Ah, yes, I somehow didn't acknowledge the bit of barrel distortion that would not occur at full tele.
Yup, there's a limiter, but it's of the most awful, basic design, with no effort made at transparency, so you don't want to be hitting it, even modestly, because it's not quite fast enough to prevent the crackling of brief clipping, but it's so fast on recovery that it pumps and flutters when driven a bit hard.
My next test, when I can get the wife & kid out of the house for an hour, is to find out if the limiter is pre or post volume control. I suspect it's pre, as I was only able to alleviate its effects by lowering the input attenuator to a very small value. Turning down the recording volume only lowers the level, but doesn't seem to back off on the limiting effect. It's a screwy audio chain, but if you are aware of the limitations, you CAN get very fine audio out of this camera.
I recorded my wife playng guitar last night, with the Rode NT4 mounted to the camera and the audio was free of hiss, had a broad and smooth frequency range that sounded natural and smooth. I've never heard audio this realistic from camera electronics. But the caveate is that you must tweak the attenuators based on expected SPLs. At a loud event with a live band, I'd opt for attenuators set in the teens. For a ceremony, set them to the mic's rated sensitivity (-38 for the NT4) and you will avoid having to crank the rec gain and get hiss.
How depressing it must be for a Sony development engineer who's just played a major part in producing what must be one of (if not THE) finest video camera in its class in the world to read some of the comments on this thread.
Whilst I agree, the little SEL/SET wheel is a joke - and the power switch is sadly lacking, generally this camera in my humble view is far and away the best I have ever used.
I think most of the negative comments are ill founded and premature.
Remember what it felt like when you first took over the controls of a car? Or when you first tried to play a tune on a musical instrument? If you were anything like me, you wondered how on earth anyone managed to get a result at all.
But a little PRACTICE and PATIENCE and you were bowling along merrily (or producing parts of songs that could be easily recognised).
This is a fabulous camera, make no mistake.
If I had a say in its design, of course the layout would be slightly different but BOY am I glad I traded that dinosaur of an HVX200 for this little beauty.
Before you moan about it guys, just take a look at your footage - on a HD monitor.
It's JUST like the stuff you see on HD TVs in the big stores.
The Sony Z1 and Panny HVX200 don't hold a candle to this baby.
Whilst I agree, the little SEL/SET wheel is a joke - and the power switch is sadly lacking, generally this camera in my humble view is far and away the best I have ever used.
I think most of the negative comments are ill founded and premature.
Remember what it felt like when you first took over the controls of a car? Or when you first tried to play a tune on a musical instrument? If you were anything like me, you wondered how on earth anyone managed to get a result at all.
But a little PRACTICE and PATIENCE and you were bowling along merrily (or producing parts of songs that could be easily recognised).
This is a fabulous camera, make no mistake.
If I had a say in its design, of course the layout would be slightly different but BOY am I glad I traded that dinosaur of an HVX200 for this little beauty.
Before you moan about it guys, just take a look at your footage - on a HD monitor.
It's JUST like the stuff you see on HD TVs in the big stores.
The Sony Z1 and Panny HVX200 don't hold a candle to this baby.
lawriejaffa
Veteran
Yeah keep telling yerself that andynick? The HVX200 does a good solid job with consistent reliability compared to what I seem to hear from the misfortunate experiences of some EX users. I think id be more concerned for the digruntled buyer than the poor Sony engineer... sheesh!
You'll forgive me if I beg to differ. For me this is all about marketing and deliberate decisions made to make the camera obsolete so that the continual "churn" rate of existing owners can be maintained.
I've just spent this afternoon at Goldsmiths trying to get my external mic holder fixed - the plastic flimsy thing that snaps off easily, as reported many times on EX1 forums, but which Sony Support just don't want to hear about or even advise a solution on. We thought this would be a straightforward job of replacing the cheap and nasty PMW-EX1 holder with one of the sturdier versions that are the standard part on a whole range of prior Sony cameras.
It turns out that the screws on the PMW-EX1 are a tiny fraction closer together than they were on previous Sony cameras. To me this is just deliberate built-in obsolescence. No-one who's seen how flimsy the plastic support base is can believe this is the "standard fitting" on a camera that costs over £4500 despite all the "it's only the picture that matters" fan boy postings here (no, it's NOT just the picture that matters!).
As if the minute distance change for no apparent reason isn't bad enough it turns out the screws used are slightly shorter and narrower than what my brother (who works full time at Goldsmiths) calls "the norm" on most of Sony's previous models. Why do this? We all know the answer: deliberate built-in obsolescence.
Dealing with silly crap like this wastes hours of time and is all so unnecessary in what fanboys here keep describing as "the perfect camera". As my brother, who maintains a lot of cameras put it "Sony will just say 'We don't have a part number for the screws and can't help you. Try B&Q" but you won't find them there because they are not a standard size.
basspig
Veteran
I must be one of the "lucky" ones, because I've used my EX1 for about a month now and no paint rubbed off, the mic holder is still intact (and it's holding a 1 lb Rode NT4 on a homemade outrigger) and, knock on wood, I haven't broken any switches by operating them.
I think Sony had to make certain decisions based on cost of manufacture, and there are very specific forumulae for determining costs of every screw and chip that goes into a product like this, and they've given us a LOT of picture quality for the money, not to mention features like all the myriad adjustments in Picture Profiles and S&Q that I would not expect on a camera under $100K, so I have to take up a contrary position to those who feel that Sony is building in obsolecense or using substandard components.
True, the camera body is not perfect, but no camera is. But it brings us a level of picture that many of us could not have afforded were this model not in existence.
It is the first camera I've owned that has very usable audio. The picture and sound are both equally head and shoulders above everything else in this price range. And it's got instant transfer & editing via solid state media. That will satisfy my needs for a very long time to come, and I'm sure there are others on this forum who will agree with that statement.
I think Sony had to make certain decisions based on cost of manufacture, and there are very specific forumulae for determining costs of every screw and chip that goes into a product like this, and they've given us a LOT of picture quality for the money, not to mention features like all the myriad adjustments in Picture Profiles and S&Q that I would not expect on a camera under $100K, so I have to take up a contrary position to those who feel that Sony is building in obsolecense or using substandard components.
True, the camera body is not perfect, but no camera is. But it brings us a level of picture that many of us could not have afforded were this model not in existence.
It is the first camera I've owned that has very usable audio. The picture and sound are both equally head and shoulders above everything else in this price range. And it's got instant transfer & editing via solid state media. That will satisfy my needs for a very long time to come, and I'm sure there are others on this forum who will agree with that statement.
I can't believe the whinners on this thread. They'd be trashing the $200,000 F23... if they could get their hands on one. Ya gotta remember: It's a $7,000 camera. It's not a $10,000 camera (that's the EX-3), It's not a $40,000 camera (F350), not a $70,000 camera (F900). You have to judge the price / performance ratio value. What do you get for the money versus other choices in the same catagory? Nothing else comes close. The Panasonic, Canon, and JVC specs don't come close. It's the best purchase in it's catagory... WITH all the flaws. In a couple of years there will be another camera that will out perform this one in it's catagory. But today... It's the EX1.
PS... most of the complaints are "first model" flaws, and operator errors.
PS... most of the complaints are "first model" flaws, and operator errors.
basspig
Veteran
With the marvelous competition-stomping performance and features of the EX1, one has to wonder that if the competitors don't pull an equally-stunning camera off their drawing boards soon, we may see a world dominated by Sony, with no competitors, except maybe Red. And I'm glad to see Red Scarlet talking up a $3K price tag. That will contribute to the downward pressure on pricing. Only concern is that camera manufacturers don't build in a "death clock" that makes them fall apart in 2 years and need replacing. I expect to be getting productive use out of my EX1 for 10-20 years with no major problems. Maybe in 20 years, HD TV will become dominant in the US. (LoL)