I don't think it's as important for indies to embrace P2 for it to come down in price. I think news organizations using DVCPro and P2 will drive the cost of media down. Us indies are a small niche market.
PLEASE EXPLAIN THE TECHI SIDE OF THIS Hvx vs. an HD cam
- Thread starter mroczkowski83
- Start date
I hope you weren't saying *I* was spreading FUD!!
When I said *us*.....referring to the early adopters....I meant the indies, the news stations, everybody who WILL buy this cam when it comes out. Literally THOUSANDS of users. That will indeed help to drive down costs and make it cheaper for everyone else to join in.
I thought the CD-R reference was "somewhat" relevant.
To sum up my post.....This new P2 / solidstate technology is here. And it's here to stay. I definitely don't see it being the next betamax or anything quite like that. It will take some time to get everyone on board though. That's all I was saying. No FUD here!!
~reservoir~
When I said *us*.....referring to the early adopters....I meant the indies, the news stations, everybody who WILL buy this cam when it comes out. Literally THOUSANDS of users. That will indeed help to drive down costs and make it cheaper for everyone else to join in.
I thought the CD-R reference was "somewhat" relevant.
To sum up my post.....This new P2 / solidstate technology is here. And it's here to stay. I definitely don't see it being the next betamax or anything quite like that. It will take some time to get everyone on board though. That's all I was saying. No FUD here!!
~reservoir~
Wasn't referring to you. I was referring to Icicle's response to your cdr post.
Isaac_Brody said:
Okay...please define FUD for me so I know exactly what I am spreading.
I am agreeing with the whole CDR analogy. But taking it one step further and saying that a large percentage of buyers waited until CDR media got really cheap before even buying their first CD burner. They didn't buy the early burner and say to themselves "I'll buy some disks in 9-12 months when they are cheaper" and just sit on it. In the same spirit I am pointing out that if you can't afford the media for the HVX I wouldn't buy the camera and wait for the media to become affordable. When the media ia affordable then buy the camera. It could turn out that by then the next great thing may have made it's way down the pipeline to us.
Thanks. Sorry for the FUD (whatever that acronym is for)
FUD stands for fear, uncertainty, and doubt. A lot of recent posts have been assumptive and served no purpose but to create fear, uncertainty, and doubt concerning the HVX and P2. I thought your post was in the vein of FUD. While I don't think you meant it to be, at least to me it came across that way.
Barry_Green
Moderator
Or, you can use it as a high-def DVCPRO-HD camera on the first day as well. Just plug the firewire cable into your laptop and run HD-Rack or FCP-HD or Avid Express HD and capture native DVCPRO-HD high-res footage, with no P2 card necessary.icicle22 said:
Or get a Firestore HD, and shoot high-def right away.
Or look at some of the other solutions that are being talked about, such as a compactflash PCMCIA adapter with a SanDisk Extreme III CF card, which may (emphasize MAY) work as a ghetto P2 card.
Or some of the anticipated PCMCIA->Firewire or PCMCIA->USB2 cards that will translate P2 commands to hard disk.
Or just plug the cable into a DVCPRO-HD deck and shoot tape.
There will be many ways to use the camera, as a full-fledged HD camera, even without P2 cards. I personally think one would be kind of foolish to have this cam and not have at least one P2 card, but there will be options, there will likely be several options.
Barry_Green
Moderator
The "media" is hard disks, and they're priced extremely right. Hard disks are cheaper than HD tape. The P2 cards are not media, they're essentially part of the camera, basically like RAM in your computer. And compare the cost of a 2GB stick of RAM in your computer, against a 2GB P2 card -- they're about the same.icicle22 said:
P2 is not media. It's a part of the camera. What you dub the P2 card to is the media; and that's hard disks, and they're dirt cheap and getting cheaper every day. And infinitely more usable than tape. It's a whole different workflow.
Rosestar
Well-known member
Luka_Brazzi said:
I've lit night exteriors with 4X that much light and I have lite a scene with a tiki torch.
The point is that the HVX promises to be a unique addition to image acquistion and, hopefully, will lead to experimentation that will foster new asthetics. With DV you spend most of your time just trying to get it to look acceptable. With Varicam/HDCAM and 35mm, there is usually so much $$$ at stake that experimentation and risk taking with the image is squelched.
As for the P2s, I believe that Barry (or was it Jarred) was right when he said, "Once you've used it, you won't want to go back to tape".
Barry_Green said:
I am not trying to argue here but I need to point something out. Just the list you made above of all the options or all of hoops the average person would have to jump through makes this a threatening undertaking to some. In an industry that has been ruled by "stick a tape in and hit record" for years this is scary and that is what brings about these remarks. It think the camera will be incredible but my statement still holds true. Because of the serious shift in workflow and the prices of P2 I do believe a large percentage will steer clear of it early on. All of your suggestions to work around the P2 media price issues require purchasing specialized hardware, adapters and expensive decks. This is good solution to avoid P2 prices initially? Doesn't seem like it. Many would agree.
But I guess the price of doing something revolutionary is you alienate those unwilling to change. At least for a while. I guess the whole idea would be easier to swallow if they weren't saying "You need to change your workflow and relearn the way that you shoot....oh.....and we are going to charge a buttload more for the memory cards".
And for what it's worth I still think of the P2 as media since it is what I record my content onto. even if it is temporary. But that is symantecs I guess.
Barry_Green
Moderator
Exactly. And they will be the ones who lose jobs in the new workplace.icicle22 said:
Just like there were people who were resistant to the word processor. After all, I can just hear 'em:
"Paper is cheap, it costs me a dollar for 500 sheets, but your computer disk costs $500!
Plus, you don't need a newfangled "computer" when you're using a typewriter...
and what do you do if the power goes out? You're stuck there, can't do anything, where I can keep typing away.
Plus what if your hard drive crashes? Paper never "crashes".
Plus how do you back it up? I've got my original on paper, where yours just lives electronically, how can you possibly trust that?
And, you're gonna have to print it out ON PAPER anyway! So why not just type straight onto the paper??"
Needless to say, we know how that turned out.
Yes you will change your workflow. And yes you will love it. Would anyone really go back to the typewriter, after using the word processor? No. And the same will be with tape. P2 is to tape, as the word processor was to the typewriter.
But it is deceptive symantics. You're locking yourself into an old tape-based mindset when you do that. You will never be able to free yourself from the shackles of the tape-based workflow if you continue to think "a P2 card is media like a tape is media". It isn't. That's not how it works.
P2 is different. It's the equivalent to what nonlinear editing was to tape-to-tape linear editing. It's liberating, it's revolutionary. It has nothing to do with the way tape used to work.
Sticking to the tape-based workflow is like arguing that editing on tape is cheaper than using an NLE. Same argument: "I bought two decks, I can edit, and my editing is cheap and easy -- tape to tape, I don't have to digitize, I don't have to archive, I don't have to buy a computer or a graphics card or a firewire board or any cables or hard disks or anything -- just edit tape to tape." Well, okay, if someone wants to do that, I guess they can... but they'll find themselves obsoleted in a heartbeat.
P2 is to tape as the NLE was to tape-based editing. Stick with the old paradigm and you'll never "get it" -- you've got to change your thinking, and change your workflow. And yes, I know people are resistant to change. But they will, and they do. If they didn't, we'd still be riding horses and typing papers and sending telegrams.
Same argument, horse vs. car: "are you stupid? You're spending $20,000 for a car? My horse was free. Leave a mare and a stallion alone for a while, and you get free horses. Plus you have to pay for gas, and oil, and brakes... all I gotta do is let my horse drink some free water and eat grass in the field, which is also free. What kinda idiot are ya, payin' $3.00 for a gallon of gas?"
You can make arguments for a million different cases, but in the end it always turns out the same: better is better, whether it's familiar or not.
People will leave tape behind.
There's always HDV. You sacrifice quality and choose a lesser format but get a traditional tape workflow. It's your choice.
^
And I think that's a point ALOT of cynics are forgetting. Panasonic is not forcing anyone to buy their camera. You have many choices ranging from DV, HDV, DVCPRO, HDCAM, XDCAM, etc. Prices are now ranging from just a few thousand for a decent camera to 150k for a CineAlta. The choice is yours. You may not like your choices, but people shouldn't cry about every shortcoming the camera will have. It will have some. But so far *I* like what I'm hearing, and can't wait to see the end result. As long as you can justify the cost for what *YOU* want to do, then roll with it!!
In my non-humble opinion, let the whinny ass tape lovers get left behind. Then we can have their work too. Digi+al is now!!
~reservoir~
And I think that's a point ALOT of cynics are forgetting. Panasonic is not forcing anyone to buy their camera. You have many choices ranging from DV, HDV, DVCPRO, HDCAM, XDCAM, etc. Prices are now ranging from just a few thousand for a decent camera to 150k for a CineAlta. The choice is yours. You may not like your choices, but people shouldn't cry about every shortcoming the camera will have. It will have some. But so far *I* like what I'm hearing, and can't wait to see the end result. As long as you can justify the cost for what *YOU* want to do, then roll with it!!
In my non-humble opinion, let the whinny ass tape lovers get left behind. Then we can have their work too. Digi+al is now!!
~reservoir~
Zig_Zigman
Well-known member
"Imagine, shooting a feature only with compact flurescent lights or only with photofloods or with availble light and having it look great. "
Ummm earth to poster, come in please. Spend some time on a film set. You have to light your ass off to make these lil cams look good.
Ummm earth to poster, come in please. Spend some time on a film set. You have to light your ass off to make these lil cams look good.
Imagine shooting an action film with HDV. Oh wait, don't imagine that. You're already working your butt off to light your film and make it look like a million bucks and yet the picture's falling apart cause it's HDV. Sweeeet.
Oh look, you're in post and trying to color correct but everytime you try and do any Tony Scott Man on Fire color corrections the picture looks like a big pile of....oh that's right, it's HDV. :evil:
Oh look, you're in post and trying to color correct but everytime you try and do any Tony Scott Man on Fire color corrections the picture looks like a big pile of....oh that's right, it's HDV. :evil:
I am not a fan of HDV. But I am a fan of making money. The HVX is clearly being marketed to a different audience than the DVX. Some of that market may crossover but the segment that really had to stretch their budget to get the DVX will not be able to afford the HVX with P2 cards and all. So there is still a market for the DVX. Someone earlier said that the prices will drop and P2 will keep getting more affordable as the years pass. True. I simply felt that saying it is justified to fork out the cash for the HVX based on future guesses on P2 prices is a little bit deceiving. I would just say base your decision on what you are going to use it for now. Because by the time prices are more affordable their may be some great new contraption to play with! That's all.
Myself I'll be sticking with DV for a while simply because I have no need or ability to deliver hi def end products....yet. I weighed the merits of selling my XL2 to get the HVX upon release.....then use the HVX for SD until I could afford or the projects demanded HD. . BUt upon further thought it just makes good common sense to stick with my already excellent SD until I need the HD. At that point the P2 cards should be at least a little more affordable and maybe the Pana will be king or maybe someone else will throw their hat in the HD ring. It all harkens back to what is repeated here constantly. Buy when you need to buy....the longer you wait the bettter your options will be.
Myself I'll be sticking with DV for a while simply because I have no need or ability to deliver hi def end products....yet. I weighed the merits of selling my XL2 to get the HVX upon release.....then use the HVX for SD until I could afford or the projects demanded HD. . BUt upon further thought it just makes good common sense to stick with my already excellent SD until I need the HD. At that point the P2 cards should be at least a little more affordable and maybe the Pana will be king or maybe someone else will throw their hat in the HD ring. It all harkens back to what is repeated here constantly. Buy when you need to buy....the longer you wait the bettter your options will be.
Isaac_Brody said:
Funny thing is that this kind of trash talk is what we had to put up with in the DV generation. No one would accept it either. So while HDV is inferior to the proposed DVCPRO HD format......it is still a fine working environment for many. Do you really need to slam it in an effort to make your future purchase of an HVX200 that much more glorious?
Lets see some of the Cinealta and 35mm film guys come over here and piss all over the specs of DVCPRO HD. It is all relative. In fact while your at it go on over to the DVX forum and dog that format. It's not as high res.....it doesn't contain as much color informatiion and is highly compressed compared to the precious DVCPRO HD codec....therefore it must be made fun of and put down at every opportunity!
Down with all formats that aren't DVCPRO HD! Die I say! (sarcasm)
Agreed. I just had to let off some steam.
Then again, in order for HDV to match what the HVX is offering you would need to buy both the Sony and JVC, since the JVC doesn't offer 60P or 60i. So in a sense, you wouldn't be saving money since you'd have to spend at least 11 grand to match the HVC in frame rates.
Then again, in order for HDV to match what the HVX is offering you would need to buy both the Sony and JVC, since the JVC doesn't offer 60P or 60i. So in a sense, you wouldn't be saving money since you'd have to spend at least 11 grand to match the HVC in frame rates.