I've had my DVX 100 A for about three hours now and I noticed when I used the 24P or P advanced setting there seems to be a distinct stutter in the picture when I pan or tilt. If I use the standard 60i setting smooth pans and tilts. Is there a problem with my camera, or, am I not setting it up properly in the menu, or, worse case scenario, that's the way 24P works?
Picture stutter in pan and tilt at 24 P
- Thread starter rdirect
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AnarchyiNtheUS
Active member
Re: Picture stutter in pan and tilt at 24 P
Stutter as in strobing, if it is strobing then its normal it just means the pan was too fast. I think, someone correct me if im wrong please.
Stutter as in strobing, if it is strobing then its normal it just means the pan was too fast. I think, someone correct me if im wrong please.
Terry_Lasater
All about the Caption
Re: Picture stutter in pan and tilt at 24 P
Also... make sure you turn OIS off when panning and tilting on tripod.
Also... make sure you turn OIS off when panning and tilting on tripod.
Re: Picture stutter in pan and tilt at 24 P
I want to thank everyone for the quick response to my posting and appreciate the suggestions. Does Panasonic mention this stuttering or strobing anywhere in the manual and consider this acceptable? I am not panning or tilting exceptionally fast for a film or video camera.
I want to thank everyone for the quick response to my posting and appreciate the suggestions. Does Panasonic mention this stuttering or strobing anywhere in the manual and consider this acceptable? I am not panning or tilting exceptionally fast for a film or video camera.
Barry_Green
Moderator
Re: Picture stutter in pan and tilt at 24 P
I have an extensive segment on my new DVD that talks about strobing, and did some extensive side-by-side comparisons against film (where I actually physically strapped the DVX to a 16mm camera and shot the same scenes, and split-screened the results).
The DVX strobing is *identical* to film strobing. Identical. No difference. The DVX renders motion exactly the same way film does, and film strobes exactly the same way the DVX does.
I have an extensive segment on my new DVD that talks about strobing, and did some extensive side-by-side comparisons against film (where I actually physically strapped the DVX to a 16mm camera and shot the same scenes, and split-screened the results).
The DVX strobing is *identical* to film strobing. Identical. No difference. The DVX renders motion exactly the same way film does, and film strobes exactly the same way the DVX does.
Re: Picture stutter in pan and tilt at 24 P
Although image buildup on the camera level is (can be ) identical w.r.t. strobing, dutycycles, on the output level (image display) this is not so identical though.In general it's rather difficult to generate the same image (film) sensation w.r.t. strobing on an electronic display. Crt displays, with their sequential image buildup are not good candidates. LCD is already closer but still shows extra blurr and a few more differences. 3 cell DLP is closest to the real film "flashing" concept. And even there we get a problem with the 48 pics interupts (basically not present with DLP)
Although image buildup on the camera level is (can be ) identical w.r.t. strobing, dutycycles, on the output level (image display) this is not so identical though.In general it's rather difficult to generate the same image (film) sensation w.r.t. strobing on an electronic display. Crt displays, with their sequential image buildup are not good candidates. LCD is already closer but still shows extra blurr and a few more differences. 3 cell DLP is closest to the real film "flashing" concept. And even there we get a problem with the 48 pics interupts (basically not present with DLP)
Barry_Green
Moderator
Re: Picture stutter in pan and tilt at 24 P
Well, yeah, so let's clarify: film that's been transferred to video, and playing off videotape, behaves (motion-wise) identically to DVX footage playing off videotape.
And, DVX footage that's been transferred 1:1 to film renders motion identically to film-originated footage.
Viewed under the same circumstances, DVX and film footage will deliver identical results as far as motion and strobing are concerned.
Well, yeah, so let's clarify: film that's been transferred to video, and playing off videotape, behaves (motion-wise) identically to DVX footage playing off videotape.
And, DVX footage that's been transferred 1:1 to film renders motion identically to film-originated footage.
Viewed under the same circumstances, DVX and film footage will deliver identical results as far as motion and strobing are concerned.
alpi69
Veteran
Re: Picture stutter in pan and tilt at 24 P
rdirect: there are lots of threads about this. most people have been astounded by this strobing if they did not know it before. there are a few workarounds to minimize it. the best advice is: use the camera like a big and bulky 35mm motioncam, not like a handheld videocam. that means: move it slower. also lower the detail of the picture, shoot in thick not thinmode and set a lower shutter (you can use syncro scan for that).
search the forums here and in other sites. also look in PAL forums, as more people complained about it here, because we do not have the 24 fps sensation, but the strobing appears more abvious to us as the framerate stays the same...
rdirect: there are lots of threads about this. most people have been astounded by this strobing if they did not know it before. there are a few workarounds to minimize it. the best advice is: use the camera like a big and bulky 35mm motioncam, not like a handheld videocam. that means: move it slower. also lower the detail of the picture, shoot in thick not thinmode and set a lower shutter (you can use syncro scan for that).
search the forums here and in other sites. also look in PAL forums, as more people complained about it here, because we do not have the 24 fps sensation, but the strobing appears more abvious to us as the framerate stays the same...
Mike_Donis
Veteran
Re: Picture stutter in pan and tilt at 24 P
As far as shutter goes, to mimic the motion blur of actual film, you'd want to keep the default of 1/50, not use longer exposures. Most film cameras shoot at about the equivalent of that.
As far as shutter goes, to mimic the motion blur of actual film, you'd want to keep the default of 1/50, not use longer exposures. Most film cameras shoot at about the equivalent of that.
J
Jestorius
Guest
Re: Picture stutter in pan and tilt at 24 P
The bulky 35mm motioncam makes a nice motion blur. The DVX doesn't. At least I havn't seen one. Did you try to lover the shutter speed?
The bulky 35mm motioncam makes a nice motion blur. The DVX doesn't. At least I havn't seen one. Did you try to lover the shutter speed?
Mike_Donis
Veteran
Re: Picture stutter in pan and tilt at 24 P
Honestly, what I think most people are seeing when they are disapointed with DVXs motion blur is not a 'bad 24P rendition" or even one that is different from film. They are most likely seeing poorly shot footage - as Barry has said, from his side-by-side tests, is that they have the exact same look to the motion. Lower shutter speeds would get you the look that film shot with a lower shutter speed would get you. If you shoot at 1/50, your motion's look will be the exact same as a film camera's - assuming that it's shooting at 1/50, which is pretty standard.
Honestly, what I think most people are seeing when they are disapointed with DVXs motion blur is not a 'bad 24P rendition" or even one that is different from film. They are most likely seeing poorly shot footage - as Barry has said, from his side-by-side tests, is that they have the exact same look to the motion. Lower shutter speeds would get you the look that film shot with a lower shutter speed would get you. If you shoot at 1/50, your motion's look will be the exact same as a film camera's - assuming that it's shooting at 1/50, which is pretty standard.
Barry_Green
Moderator
Re: Picture stutter in pan and tilt at 24 P
Exactly. Watch the footage from someone who knows how to use the camera, someone who knows how to use film, and you'll see that the motion rendering is identical. It sounds blunt to say it, but it must be said: if the strobing is objectionable, it is due to camera operator error, because the camera renders motion IDENTICALLY to how film renders motion. It is documentable and provable, and I've got plenty of examples on the DVD that should be released next week.
Exactly. Watch the footage from someone who knows how to use the camera, someone who knows how to use film, and you'll see that the motion rendering is identical. It sounds blunt to say it, but it must be said: if the strobing is objectionable, it is due to camera operator error, because the camera renders motion IDENTICALLY to how film renders motion. It is documentable and provable, and I've got plenty of examples on the DVD that should be released next week.
Re: Picture stutter in pan and tilt at 24 P
This is why Barry is a guru . . . ;D
This is why Barry is a guru . . . ;D
Jim Brennan
VHS Member Old Skool
Re: Picture stutter in pan and tilt at 24 P
Apologies for my ignorance, but what is "Strobing" and how is it different from "stutter"?
Apologies for my ignorance, but what is "Strobing" and how is it different from "stutter"?
Mike_Donis
Veteran
Re: Picture stutter in pan and tilt at 24 P
When people say "strobing" and "stutter" when referring to 24P motion blur, they're generally referring to the same thing...
When people say "strobing" and "stutter" when referring to 24P motion blur, they're generally referring to the same thing...
Jim Brennan
VHS Member Old Skool
Re: Picture stutter in pan and tilt at 24 P
Here's another question. My editor is working on our latest project. He dumped the footage on his mac and is editing in FCP. He noticed that quick movements (People, not the camera) result in what he calls "video noise" where the motion is. I no longer have access to the original footage...at least at the moment, so I can't go back and see if it's that way on the tape. Is this more likey to be the aforementioned "strobing" or could it be the way the computer/software compresses and plays back the image due to memory constraints (It's a G4 with a 1.25 Ghz processor and a gig of RAM) Any takers?
Here's another question. My editor is working on our latest project. He dumped the footage on his mac and is editing in FCP. He noticed that quick movements (People, not the camera) result in what he calls "video noise" where the motion is. I no longer have access to the original footage...at least at the moment, so I can't go back and see if it's that way on the tape. Is this more likey to be the aforementioned "strobing" or could it be the way the computer/software compresses and plays back the image due to memory constraints (It's a G4 with a 1.25 Ghz processor and a gig of RAM) Any takers?
Curugon
Well-known member
Re: Picture stutter in pan and tilt at 24 P
Try changing the playback quality to "high."
System Settings > Playback Control > Video Quality > HIGH
It is normally set to Medium, and that bump usually gets rid of a lot of noise. If you have a playback monitor, rendering *might* be required for the G4. If that's the case, edit the piece on "medium," then when you're ready for output, change to "high" and render.
Try changing the playback quality to "high."
System Settings > Playback Control > Video Quality > HIGH
It is normally set to Medium, and that bump usually gets rid of a lot of noise. If you have a playback monitor, rendering *might* be required for the G4. If that's the case, edit the piece on "medium," then when you're ready for output, change to "high" and render.
Jim Brennan
VHS Member Old Skool
Re: Picture stutter in pan and tilt at 24 P
I'm sorry, I thought one of the purposes of a user group was to ask questions about things you don't understand.
As far as "what to expect" from the camera, my expectations have been exceeded. However that doesn't mean that I know all the details of how it operates or what it's limitations are the moment I take it out of the box. It seems like a complex piece of equipment.
Some of us don't have years of experience or lots of technical knowledge. That's why we bought the camera, experiment with it, and come to groups like this. I agree that it can be annoying when it seems someone hasn't done any research on their own, but we are all coming from different places with a different set of knowledge. Besides, isn't this a place to do that research? I've yet to find a more knowledgeable group in regards to not only this camera, but filmmaking in general.
I'm sorry, I thought one of the purposes of a user group was to ask questions about things you don't understand.
As far as "what to expect" from the camera, my expectations have been exceeded. However that doesn't mean that I know all the details of how it operates or what it's limitations are the moment I take it out of the box. It seems like a complex piece of equipment.
Some of us don't have years of experience or lots of technical knowledge. That's why we bought the camera, experiment with it, and come to groups like this. I agree that it can be annoying when it seems someone hasn't done any research on their own, but we are all coming from different places with a different set of knowledge. Besides, isn't this a place to do that research? I've yet to find a more knowledgeable group in regards to not only this camera, but filmmaking in general.