Panning with a 370

videoatlanta

videoatlanta

Well-known member
So I noticed when panning with the camera the image is horrible.
The first time I noticed was in 480i 30p mode. So I decided to run some test today and I shot the same pans in:

1080i/60 30Pn shutter 1/60 CAC on
1080i/60 30Pn shutter 1/60 CAC OFF

1080i/60 30Pn shutter 1/122 CAC on

1080i/60 60i shutter 1/60 CAC on

1080i/60 24Pn shutter 1/60 CAC on
1080i/60 24Pn shutter 1/22 CAC on
1080i/60 24Pn shutter 1/500 CAC on

720P/60 60 shutter 1/60 CAC on *
720P/60 30pn shutter 1/60 CAC on

They all sucked but one.....
720P/60 60 shutter 1/60 CAC on *

Now I loaded in the second CAC file per instruction on an insert that camera with the camera manual. This was a add on update to make the Cac better I guess. I am appalled that you can't pan with this camera in every mode but one! Come on Panasonic! Is this why the rebate? Get rid of em?
This is my first CMOS chip camera.
Everything else with the camera is great. There is so much to love about this camera. The images are great. But, dang the pans are horrendous.

Buyer beware.

I welcome input and suggestions.
 
Welcome to the world of CMOS. It's the nature of the CMOS chip. It's a trade off: High resolution+lower cost=CMOS. CCD+High resolution= really big $$$$$$. CMOS chips suffer from "Jellocam" and rolling shutter issues. There are ways to tweak them to minimize these effects, but here is no way to eliminate them. To get a full featured camera at this price point dictated the chip to be used, so the rest is history.

This has been discussed extensively since the HPX 300 prototype. It really depends how you intend to use a piece of equipment that determines what you should buy. The 300/370 is suitable for many uses but not everything just like any other tool.
 
You can't pan at all?

I pan with my 300 all the time.

Will it skew in some modes more than others. Yes. Will it skew very badly if you whip pan it, shooting 1080 24P, on a long lens? Of course.

As noted, it's the nature of CMOS sensors. This camera has some limitations, but unless you shoot sports, shoot handheld on a long lens, or shoot 24P doing all of the above- I've found the issue to be a bit of a red herring for the typical user.

Are you judging the skew by viewing footage or judging it by the image in the VF ? The VF skews worse than the actual recorded image.

As Jim Behl said, buyer beware.

Of course that admonition should be heeded with any camera.
 
It would really help if you could tell us what the Horrible bit is? is it blurring/skew noise ? its a little hard to help without actually knowing what your problem is.

p.s. CAC will have nothing to do with panning, it is just there to reduce chromatic abborhrations in the image (purple fringing etc)
 
I meant to say P.A.P filter not the CaC.

I'm viewing footage Via SDI to a $2,000 FSI HD Monitor.
Also, making DVD to view SD on TV.
I am viewing it on a Comp. screen.

Yes I know all 3 have different methods and concerns and playback issues/quality.
I've been producing videos for 18 years.
I find the blurry mush in the image when moving camera a bit much.
 
Hallo Chris! I've read yor inbox message. I can't help you much in this situation because i've a 301. If you look at the videoclip that i've post some days ago ( i know that you have seen it! ) you can find a lot of camera motion , not pans, but shaky movement. I've not noticed the blurring pixels on the 301. Sometimes in pans i've seen grain in movement on some tints such gray, brown or dark green, but it's really not a problem. You can see it only on a 23" lcd or bigger screen if you look at it from a short distance such as 1 meter or so. On a plasma tv you will not notice it. Another thing that you can notice is a sort of trail in movement. It seems like a natural motion blur but what you see in the frame is a sort of duplication of pixels.But this happens only with fast shutter speed such as 1/1000 and you can't see it in normal playback,only in stills. I think that the noise suppression filter on the 371 prevent this kind of problems, but probably not in the correct way.You have to look at a post by Steven Phillips:

http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?216708-Noise-on-movement&highlight=noise+on+movement

to see if your problem is the same.By the way that post comes out before the PAP update. Have you tried pans with the filter in booth position ( if i'm not wrong you can choose between 2 types of filter)? One of the trick to prevent the blurring is to shoot with fast shutter speed such as 1/250 in outdoor situations. But i've read that you have tried shutter speed in your tests. I think that Andy-Garion could help you a lot with this kind of problem. He has a 371 and he knows how to set up it correctly!
Hope that you will resolve this issue!
Bests and good work!
Roberto
 
Hallo Chris. I see it. Is obviously more noticeable in progressive mode but is the issue that is discussed from the new release of the 371. I bought one and give it back for this problem. No way, the 301 has a bit of blurring in fast pans but is absolutely not noticeable and you may have it only in 1080p. The others format doesn't have any problem at all. The 1080i is perfect. So my suggestion is this: for the outdoor pan in front of the house you can do two things: first turn the pedestal down to about -10 or much. You will loose the underexposed part of the footage but the details still remains intact. The second test is to set gain at 0. Much details will come in and the effect will be a bit less visible. The other thing that you can do is to set the coring down to 0. This will increase the details levels, but the noise will stand out. For the roompan....you almost can't do nothing! Here is a link to some fast clips made with the 301. They are made to test the noise level of the 301. You can see from them that the "noise everywhere" of the 301 is absolutely a lie. Sorry for the out of focus pictures and terrible pans,overexposed and so on. There is a bit of chromatic aberrations because i deactivate the CAC filter for another lens and forget to turn it on! I made them in about 5 minutes without follow focus and in telephoto. So the camera shakes a bit too much!But they are made only to see how much grain comes out from this camera.The detail level is -2,coring +4 and pedestal -10. The other settings comes out from the vivid scene file. The bad thing is that the file is 1.08 gb!!!!! There are 6 archives to download and then you can extract the first on your hard drive.
Here is the link : http://www.mediafire.com/?6uwo6mvu310j5

Bests,
Roberto
 
Don't mean to hijack this, but I'm curious about specifics in price/performance. 370 with rebate is about $8000 and includes lens. Next step up, from what I see on B&H Photo, is Sony 320 w/lens for about $12,000. Does that price point, with 1/2 inch sensor, significantly improve the panning? Or do you have to go to $20K and up (lens extra cost) to get that?

Purely academic for me. $8K would be a stretch, $12K unaffordable, $20K+ suicidal.
 
Hallo powerdog! In Italy for 6900€ you can have a 301! Try download the clips that i've posted in my previous post and see if you like them. No blur in pans on the 301 exept for normal motionblur and only in 1080p mode...sometimes!You can find clips made to test the noise level of the 301 and are absolutely not perfect but you can find a camera pan there.
Bests,
Roberto
 
Hi Lez! I've seen your footage and move my eyes all around to find something wrong and i didn't noticed anything!!!Details stay in the place (i was looking to the posters on the wall, the ring's red corners,the boxing head protection and the banners around the ring) Very well done! And i know how may be tricky to shoot with the 371! You can definitively help Chris-videoatlanta to improve his camera results!
Bests,
Roberto
 
The 500 is good but old now... I'd would not go for the upsampled HD in today's environment...

Thanks Roberto... if the client only had some budget we could deconstruct the footage some more... needs allot more of a play in AE...

I blew it by shooting 50p.. should have gone with 25p... and because I tend to shoot a bit thin.. I reckon all the posters had some pixel burn... (although reducing the levels did help)...

It's probably as hard as you can push a camera with all the info in the pic... following boxers etc...

Cheers

Here's one in a different environment ... still very tough conditions... there was a 2000 watt light 2 foot above them...

http://vimeo.com/11794743

PS - I'm using the HPX302
 
Very good titling Lez! Nice camera movements and footage blends very well with the layout!I really like how AE works with AVCIntra footage! So you're using the 302! It confirms the fact that the 371 have this strange issue even after the PAP update. Yes levels is the best way to eliminate this problems. But to be honest the effect on the 301/302 is very low and happens not every time only in 1080p mode.In 1080i and 720 i never noticed it.
Chris i agree with Lez. The 500 is a very good camera but is too old. I know that CCD are better than CMOS but you have to consider that you will loose much details in a wide shot with the 500. More are the informations more you loose details. The image is upscaled to fit 1920x1080 but the number of pixels still remains the same. The other thing are HD lens. I have a friend that uses only SD lens on his 500. He said that the difference is not so impressive at all!
I know that returning a 371 for a 301 is not fantastic, but when i change mine i spent all the rest of the money (about 2000€) in P2 cards!

Bests,
Roberto
 
Shot today Interlaced and it looked fine on pans. This was in SD.
Shot yesterday in 720P60 and it looked fine, though almost no pans. So all is not lost. The cam just isn't a versatile as advertised IMO.
 
Hallo Chris! Good to hear this! Have you made some changes in the camera setup? Such as scene files,PAP filter or shutter speed? Maybe someone has your same problem and can resolve with yours suggestions! The issue is much visible in progressive mode but i think that with some adjustments you can beat it!
And now...good work!
Bests,
Roberto
 
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