squig
Veteran
it was the pixel peeping that made you dizzy
Panning 'mud', reasons why and firmware update
- Thread starter commanderspike
- Start date
it was the pixel peeping that made you dizzy
SonicStates
Well-known member
Man, you are gonna give me some kind of reputation with that kind of post!!!....
pm you later alright?
Jean Dantes
Well-known member
Damn...if it's even happening to character movement, this sounds more serious then I thought...
Is this something a firmware update could fix, or is this beyond a firmware update?
The "mud" is not the result of a pan, it is due to rapid changes frame to frame. Cars speeding by, pulling focus, rapid movement, pans, rotation, and vibration will all have the same effect to some degree.
Most of the problems you should not notice during playback unless it's really bad. For example, the train videos posted a while back... So, if you usually can't notice it unless you pause and examine each frame should you care? Depends..
The real trouble really comes out when doing post work like keying, tracking, and color timing. They all heavily depend on having a good frame by frame source, once the video begins to fall apart just a little you are faced with big problems. Keying and tracking will immediately begin to fail, and color will break down due to inconsistencies.
How much of a problem this is always depends on the circumstance. What shutter speed, what camera mode, the subject, lighting, etc... That does not mean you can't use the GH1 for keying... Of course you can, tracking too. Just have to be more careful.
IMO the real danger of this is not that there can be a problem under certain circumstances... It's that since there is no live output during capture, you may only discover the problem in post. By then it's too late.
Most of the problems you should not notice during playback unless it's really bad. For example, the train videos posted a while back... So, if you usually can't notice it unless you pause and examine each frame should you care? Depends..
The real trouble really comes out when doing post work like keying, tracking, and color timing. They all heavily depend on having a good frame by frame source, once the video begins to fall apart just a little you are faced with big problems. Keying and tracking will immediately begin to fail, and color will break down due to inconsistencies.
How much of a problem this is always depends on the circumstance. What shutter speed, what camera mode, the subject, lighting, etc... That does not mean you can't use the GH1 for keying... Of course you can, tracking too. Just have to be more careful.
IMO the real danger of this is not that there can be a problem under certain circumstances... It's that since there is no live output during capture, you may only discover the problem in post. By then it's too late.
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andrzejkra
Active member
Maybe you should go look at the clips that he was talking about and judge for yourself. You really have no measure of the 'seriousness' of this if you are just basing your opinion on 6 screen shots floating around, 1 or 2 clips of bad footage and the opinions of others people who are also looking at the same highly biased sampling of content. All the while ignoring the input of professionals who have actually put the camera to good use and keep pointing out that it produces excellent images in the vast majority of situations even with the 'broken' 1080 codec.
Who on here would even know if a firmware update will fix it? Why would anyone be able to answer this question except as another token of useless hearsay.
Finally.... may your marriage be filled with joy and happiness. You may now kiss the lcd. (and take a loooong honeymoon :kiss: please?)
Seriously, enjoy and all the best.
.A lot of people will never notice the "mud", I don't think that should be the greatest deciding factor.
The camera is only as good as the filmmaker. Having a GH1, 5D, RED, or Arriflex 435 won't necessarily mean your work will be better. The GH1 is a good camera, it won't be great for everyone but good enough for many. It's a bargain either way.
The camera is only as good as the filmmaker. Having a GH1, 5D, RED, or Arriflex 435 won't necessarily mean your work will be better. The GH1 is a good camera, it won't be great for everyone but good enough for many. It's a bargain either way.
Boz
Well-known member
I'm on the fence as well, but not as flip-floppy as Squig. I did cancel my GH1 preorder. So, now I'm waiting to see what happens with GH1 while keeping my eye on development of the 60D (if it has the same features as the 5Dii just with smaller APS-C sensor, then sold!) and the D400. I don't need a camera NOW, so I can hang out a bit and see what happens. Who ever gets it right first gets my $$. 
Park Edwards
Veteran
I'm on the fence as well, but not as flip-floppy as Squig. I did cancel my GH1 preorder. So, now I'm waiting to see what happens with GH1 while keeping my eye on development of the 60D (if it has the same features as the 5Dii just with smaller APS-C sensor, then sold!) and the D400. I don't need a camera NOW, so I can hang out a bit and see what happens. Who ever gets it right first gets my $$.
buy a RED
Barry_Green
Moderator
Red One debuted with skew, rolling shutter issues, complaints about noisy footage in Redcode 36, crashing, breaking cast parts, infrared issues, sub-par sound quality, a replaced lens mount, and probably a few dozen more serious question marks. Heck, it's still being updated frequently, it's not "there" yet. In fact, they recalled the entire first batch of cameras completely and re-issued brand new ones, adding an "X" after the serial number (so if you had unit #34, you now have unit #34X). Then they recalled all the cameras to replace the audio boards with high-quality audio boards.
Every new camera has issues.
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it seems to happen ocassionally when paning, when moving, when focusing, but not always.
the mud means you must check every scene just after taking it, so the GH1 workflow should be:
1- recording lets say a 10 mins scene
2- check the scene during 10 mins trying to see if there is mud
3- if (mud) goto 1
4- continue to next scene
lets hope panasonic release a firmware update, this is a shame every cheap avchd cam I've checked don't have this problem, even the photo cams
the mud means you must check every scene just after taking it, so the GH1 workflow should be:
1- recording lets say a 10 mins scene
2- check the scene during 10 mins trying to see if there is mud
3- if (mud) goto 1
4- continue to next scene
lets hope panasonic release a firmware update, this is a shame every cheap avchd cam I've checked don't have this problem, even the photo cams
That's the truf. and that's why panny has to get this coke moving so we can figure out what blend of soda is going to keep my clientele coming back for more. :thumbup:
Barry_Green
Moderator
That's what I'm trying to figure out, and Kholi as well, and commanderspike made a pretty good post about it.
Fact is, if this had been released at the $4,000 to $6,000 price point, by the broadcast division, I would be screaming holy hell at them right now, just like I did about HDV. At that price point, and aimed at professionals, it would be completely unacceptable.
But at $1500, and aimed at consumers, and with all else that it's got going for it, that tips the scale to the point of "heck yeah, let's make this thing work!"
Fact is, if this had been released at the $4,000 to $6,000 price point, by the broadcast division, I would be screaming holy hell at them right now, just like I did about HDV. At that price point, and aimed at professionals, it would be completely unacceptable.
But at $1500, and aimed at consumers, and with all else that it's got going for it, that tips the scale to the point of "heck yeah, let's make this thing work!"
John Caballero
Veteran
Very well said for your very first post. Welcome. The fact is that the pros have spoken and that what counts. That dancing piece was excellent. It showed the dynamic range, the color and the movement at its best with what is called "motion blur". The fact is that nobody is forced to buy any camera and that includes the GH1. Those of us, that are commited to it and eagerly awaitng for it, will be very happy if we follow the instructions well. Thanks to Philip, Kholi, Hunter, Barry, Sonic and all the others that have contributed their input. Their efforts at this very early stage will help us shoot excellent stuff. Thanks again.
Jean Dantes
Well-known member
I totally agree with you Barry! But for us poor bastards in Australia, Panasonic is asking $3300AUD (roughly $2650USD) for a GH1. So for broke-ass fulltime University students like me, every dollar counts
However, people have told me that the GH1 is producing better images then a Sony EX1, is this true? If so, even $3300AUD sounds good!
I am really hoping that the GH1 does well. I've dreamed about owing a camera that can deliver a high-pixel progressive image, shallow DoF, interchangeable lens, all for a decent price for over a decade now...I think we all have lol
I just hope Panasonic is watching these forums, and adheres to things like the petition begun by Isaac Brody!
Jean Dantes
Well-known member
I agree with what you're saying, and I've watched Bloom's 'Joshua Tree' video quite a few times over since the day he posted it (and every other GH1 video on Vimeo). I am not basing my opinion on six-screenshots, or one of two clips of bad footage, I'm trying to base my opinion off whether $3300 is worth it or not. I know there are people on here who are able to buy cameras left, right, and centre, and not think twice, but some of us have to be extremely cautious with our money; especially when we are being made to pay through the nose down here in Australia. And so far, Bloom seems to be the only 'professional' that has made something 'professional' - a piece that was not only commissioned by Panasonic, but he had Zeiss Ultra Primes, a PL mount adaptor, a mattebox, and filters, to produce his piece (so chuck another couple thousand dollars on top of that $3300). So I think it is rather 'serious' if I'm paying $3300 for a product that isn't delivering the "beautiful, richly detailed movies in full HD" that Panasonic states on their website.
Don't get me wrong, I want this camera to succeed. But like I said before, I wanna know just exactly what I'm paying for here. Surely you can understand my curiosity??? :huh:
PappasArts
Veteran
So, now I'm waiting to see what happens with GH1 while keeping my eye on development of the 60D (if it has the same features as the 5Dii just with smaller APS-C sensor, then sold!)
The 60D for sure is coming! I think that's one of a few reasons the Firmware came out. I think to make nice with current 5D owners before a more refined and the very latest technology installed in a newer camera gets released. Remember the 5D MII is almost a year old. The head of Canon spoke candid during a PMA interview with DPreview.com; and even stated that a lower price camera can leap upper ones that might be a little older in the technology implantations of the time of their design; ( referencing to the 5D leaping the 1DS questions ) that was just the way technology works he basically said. The 60D line is 1,700 approx costing camera. Not really far in price form the 5D. It will be interesting...
However this is interesting:
B&H just put up the Nimar UNDERWATER HOUSING for the Canon EOS 60D on their site.
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produ...I303D1607_UNDERWATER_HOUSING_f_CANON_EOS.html
.
andrzejkra
Active member
Hey thanks! I have actually been reading these forums for several years but never felt a need to post since the answers to most of my questions are usually already dealt with in great detail. These forums are an absolute treasure to anyone involved in video production.
The fact that the GH1 can shoot in HD with interchangeable lenses (and a m4/3 body that will even let me use the ultra fast c-mount canon lens that I bought years ago for 2$ at the flea market... to use as a stylish paperweight) at this price point is amazing even with the poor 1080 codec. I don't even use the 1080 mode on the HVX because it has it's own set of issues and just seems to produce better results at 720. Not to mention how terrible almost every wide angle shot looks on the HVX.
I don't mean to evangelize the GH1. I also hope that the codec can be improved with a firmware update - but even with a firmware update, I can guarantee you that this still won’t be a perfect camera. You will still have to understand how it will behave under different conditions. If you guys are not sure if this is the camera for you, that's fine - I understand that. The MKII and D90, however, do not offer any more freedom from limitations than the GH1 or any other camera.
I guess the point is that making good art is in part a product of the limitations that technology imposes on us. I'm sure Da'Vinci would've found it easier to take a 14 megapixel photograph of some girl called Mona Lisa than to spend months painting on a canvas with primitive pigments – but if he did, we wouldn’t have the Mona Lisa. Not to say that having better technology is a bad thing, but technology by definition is only as good as the person using it and even the most flawed technology, in the right hands, will create something amazing.