Panning 'mud', reasons why and firmware update
- Thread starter commanderspike
- Start date
We have a winner!
And how exactly are you sure about that?
John Caballero
Veteran
Exactly. Would you care to enlighten us with all the details please?
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Illya Friedman
Well-known member
This discussion is crazy. This artifact is not only avoidable, I haven't seen it at all lately when shooting (normally) in Icon mode w/manual lenses.
This is rapidly being blown out of proportion. I'm looking at some stuff shot over the past few weeks on a 2K big screen and on 35mm film this week, I'll report more after.
I.
Illya Friedman
Hot Rod Cameras
This is rapidly being blown out of proportion. I'm looking at some stuff shot over the past few weeks on a 2K big screen and on 35mm film this week, I'll report more after.
I.
Illya Friedman
Hot Rod Cameras
John Caballero
Veteran
The "mystery artifac syndrome" as urban legend. This is what happens when basically 4 people have a camera in the whole U.S. of A. Thank you Illya for saving the day, a few people were ready to swallow a poison pill and just die over this. You just prevented a mass suicide! Can't wait for the big screen reports.
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commanderspike
Carbonite Member
Okay back from my test.
First up, El Cheapo class 6 memory card. That's 'class 6' with a pinch of salt, but recommended by Panasonic.
Literally the first pan I did after stepping outside the front door, I see this awful corruption, not just on my Macbook Pro in FCP but on the GH1's screen itself under playback from the card:
El cheapo card, not panning
El cheapo card, panning begins, not too fast...
Now the results from the Sandisk Extreme III 8GB card, 30MBps edition, setting me back 2100 NT dollars which is approx 80 USD.
Uh oh...
Yep - just as bad.
I then tried all the dial settings, OIS on / off, manual mode, auto mode, ISO 100, ISO 400, P, M, A, S and P I S S E D O F F. Nothing makes a difference.
Speechless. I just can't believe Panasonic let this thing out of the factory doors with such a major flaw. I am really fed up with them.
Video is the raison d'etre for the GH1 to exist!
If this is fixable with a firmware update, it better arrive soon... anything involving handheld work and panning is going to be a write off... that is to say 90% of footage will be effected, even panning on a tripod.
Utterly ridiculous. I have never seen such a huge bug with a 'market ready' piece of consumer electronics in all my life.
Just to make sure I wasn't seeing things, going insane (cannot be disproved), or my Macbook wasn't overheating, here is the same phenomenon on the GH1's screen itself under playback mode:
First up, El Cheapo class 6 memory card. That's 'class 6' with a pinch of salt, but recommended by Panasonic.
Literally the first pan I did after stepping outside the front door, I see this awful corruption, not just on my Macbook Pro in FCP but on the GH1's screen itself under playback from the card:
El cheapo card, not panning
El cheapo card, panning begins, not too fast...
Now the results from the Sandisk Extreme III 8GB card, 30MBps edition, setting me back 2100 NT dollars which is approx 80 USD.
Uh oh...
Yep - just as bad.
I then tried all the dial settings, OIS on / off, manual mode, auto mode, ISO 100, ISO 400, P, M, A, S and P I S S E D O F F. Nothing makes a difference.
Speechless. I just can't believe Panasonic let this thing out of the factory doors with such a major flaw. I am really fed up with them.
Video is the raison d'etre for the GH1 to exist!
If this is fixable with a firmware update, it better arrive soon... anything involving handheld work and panning is going to be a write off... that is to say 90% of footage will be effected, even panning on a tripod.
Utterly ridiculous. I have never seen such a huge bug with a 'market ready' piece of consumer electronics in all my life.
Just to make sure I wasn't seeing things, going insane (cannot be disproved), or my Macbook wasn't overheating, here is the same phenomenon on the GH1's screen itself under playback mode:
commanderspike
Carbonite Member
I find this interesting. You were not using the kit lens, and had no artefacts?
Try using the 14-140mm kit lens and see if you have the same terrible problems as I do.
Joe Shaw
Well-known member
FWIW, I have a PAL camera and my initial - very early - experiment shows that yes, if you pan at a certain speed, the picture does break up and artifacts appear. I am on 25p workflow obviously, so no pulldown issues. I use Edius 5 which has a great AVCHD utility - including a preview option which allows me to just drag and drop footage onto an icon and playback.
Testing the camera whilst panning it is fine until a certain speed, then it breaks up. If you pan quicker still it actually seems to break up less.
As Illya has said, it's avoidable and I can see very few occasions where I might pan like that in shooting. And I'm pretty sure if I had to use a shot like that I could cover it in After Effects.
I'll let you know more as I figure out the camera.
Testing the camera whilst panning it is fine until a certain speed, then it breaks up. If you pan quicker still it actually seems to break up less.
As Illya has said, it's avoidable and I can see very few occasions where I might pan like that in shooting. And I'm pretty sure if I had to use a shot like that I could cover it in After Effects.
I'll let you know more as I figure out the camera.
commanderspike
Carbonite Member
It depends on the level of detail in the scene. Panning indoors I wasn't able to corrupt the picture.
Simply holding the camera and panning slowly outside today, as you see ABOVE, causes the problem to occur once every 10 seconds on average.
An intolerably bad level of performance.
Simply holding the camera and panning slowly outside today, as you see ABOVE, causes the problem to occur once every 10 seconds on average.
An intolerably bad level of performance.
plasmasmp
Well-known member
If you turn off the Noise Reduction, does it help with the artifacting? (IF) this is a CPU issue, possibly taking some of the load off will help free resources for encoding. Turning off noise reduction makes sense in this case. Additionally, though it is against popular theory here, if you shoot a subject with narrow depth of field and try shaking the camera, is their less breakup on screen? When items are out of focus it will be easier for the realtime encoder as there is less fine detail to record.
I was all excited about this camera until the first 1080i samples were put up a few weeks ago, but it seems many people since then have been doubting that this issue exists. This is a definite issue, and we need to systematically go through the settings and see if this problem can be avoided. If not, the 1080i mode on this camera will essentially be less usuable than the jello ridden sensor in the D90. (only usuable for static shots or shots without much motion either by the subjects or the camera itself. )
I look forward to all the new owner's tests and results.
I was all excited about this camera until the first 1080i samples were put up a few weeks ago, but it seems many people since then have been doubting that this issue exists. This is a definite issue, and we need to systematically go through the settings and see if this problem can be avoided. If not, the 1080i mode on this camera will essentially be less usuable than the jello ridden sensor in the D90. (only usuable for static shots or shots without much motion either by the subjects or the camera itself. )
I look forward to all the new owner's tests and results.
bro, I feel your pain.
Hopefully, you just got one from a batch of faulty units. Maybe all will be
well soon.
commanderspike
Carbonite Member
Maybe there is a batch of faulty units. We will see.
But this artefact is everywhere... in many people's footage, in PAL cameras, in NTSC cameras. It's just unbelievable.
I am going back and forth outside and to my Macbook now, to see if there is a work around settings wise...
But this artefact is everywhere... in many people's footage, in PAL cameras, in NTSC cameras. It's just unbelievable.
I am going back and forth outside and to my Macbook now, to see if there is a work around settings wise...
squig
Veteran
how does the panning look in 720p and mjpeg?
commanderspike
Carbonite Member
Seems to be at it's worst when panning at a higher shutter speed. If there is a lot of motion blur, the effect is somewhat less.
Also seems slightly better in manual mode, on the movie dial, than in any in auto, etc. But the effect is still pretty bad.
Also seems slightly better in manual mode, on the movie dial, than in any in auto, etc. But the effect is still pretty bad.
Illya Friedman
Well-known member
There's a bunch of things you need to turn to "off" to actually get to a manual mode in "movie camera Icon mode". Was auto focus and intelligent iso on? Turn all that stuff off.
What was your focal length?
I just uploaded a simple tilt down here http://www.vimeo.com/4959639
It's ugly so I'm going to delete it day after tomorrow. If memory serves, this was shot with the G1 kit lens, and a mattebox that wasn't adjusted correctly (why vignetting in the lower corners) the lens was not all the way wide, probably about 20mm. I watched it frame by frame in QT and there was none of the "mud".
I.
Illya Friedman
Hot Rod Cameras
commanderspike
Carbonite Member
All off apart from auto focus. OIS off, ISO fixed at 100. Shutter fixed at 1/30, aperture F4. Movie dial, and in menus M mode selected.
Until I can record footage myself with the kit lens, panning with plenty of detail outside in good sunlight, I cannot accept claims that the problem isn't serious or is fixable.
All due respect but it's not much of a fix having to turn off all the auto settings, a major GH1 advantage over the 5DM2, and abandoning the kit lens which makes up over 2 thirds of the GH1's retail price!
I hope to prove myself wrong, but all my testing so far has seen more artefacts than an archaeological dig.
Sometimes, at low shutter speeds, indoors, or in low light, the GH1 produces some very clean footage free of the breakage. But in bright light, outdoors with a lot of fine detail, things ALWAYS go awry for me... yet to prove myself wrong, even with this damned expensive white elephant of a memory card I just wasted my money on
rogar-Smoke(DBG):
Until I can record footage myself with the kit lens, panning with plenty of detail outside in good sunlight, I cannot accept claims that the problem isn't serious or is fixable.
All due respect but it's not much of a fix having to turn off all the auto settings, a major GH1 advantage over the 5DM2, and abandoning the kit lens which makes up over 2 thirds of the GH1's retail price!
I hope to prove myself wrong, but all my testing so far has seen more artefacts than an archaeological dig.
Sometimes, at low shutter speeds, indoors, or in low light, the GH1 produces some very clean footage free of the breakage. But in bright light, outdoors with a lot of fine detail, things ALWAYS go awry for me... yet to prove myself wrong, even with this damned expensive white elephant of a memory card I just wasted my money on
rogar-Smoke(DBG):cuz i said so.. well actually it has been discussed before
if camcorders with 17mbps can produce far better results, why cant the gh1 too? They crippled it? Its most likely gh1 cant encode a 1080 video compared to 720. We should request for a 720 24p. perhaps that one would give a far more better result.
no other reason why it wouldnt be the cpu that is causing the artifacts. It cant be the avchd codec itself.
if camcorders with 17mbps can produce far better results, why cant the gh1 too? They crippled it? Its most likely gh1 cant encode a 1080 video compared to 720. We should request for a 720 24p. perhaps that one would give a far more better result.
Didn't sonicstates have a problem with the shutter set at 1/30, or was that just while shooting 720?
Anyway,why should you be having this problem on external shots only? I've seen some of this mud in some other external shots with the kit lens, but only turning fuzzy in certain areas of high detail like grass. Your samples seem really extreme compared to the other footage i've seen and played with. Do you have another lens that you can try out and see if this is kit lens related in some way?