Panning 'mud', reasons why and firmware update

Kay fixed it. The second still changed as well. One take back to back in 1080/24

That's through a pan and a tilt at the same time. Trying to track the performer in mid-air. A pretty intense situation for the GH-1's compression but frame-by-frame, the only thing I could spy was an improper pulldown.

Still waiting to get a Neoscene license myself.
 
Well it definitely looks cleaner than what we're seeing elsewhere. Any chance you can point the camera out the video and do a quick vertical pan to see if you get the same results (in daylight)?
 
Martti Ekstrand said:
Exqueeze me but how does this compute in your mind? Lets break it down in steps:

1. Panasonic clearly states the specs needed for cards to be used in GH-1.

2. Some random card makers puts out cards on the market that are not up to snuff.

3. Image gets artefacts when using such cards and it's then a big flaw of the camera?

What should Panasonic (or any other camera maker) do to make sure it works with any and every card out there in the world? Have the cam only output 360x240 files? Just 10 fps? No colour? Or just stop in mid-take and throw up a error box ala Windows "This card is mushy-mushy. [Yes] [Cancel]"?
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Martti , just some thoughts...


1. GH1 has a "mud" problem under some cirscumstances. This is a big flaw.

2. we dont know yet if the problem comes from some sdhc cards, we wish it is!, if not, it may be lot worse, lets say a hardware problem.

3. If all the other 17mbps AVCHD cams, including panasonic video cams, seem to work fine with all cards, then why the GH dont? this is a flaw of the GH1

4. the problem is very comon, there are still few GH1s in the market, and there are lots of examples of the mud.

4. if panasonic release a cam with an incompatibility problem with a lot of cards in the market, then it is a panasonic flaw


again, I will be happy is this is solved with sandisk extreme, or panasonics cards or...
 
Don't have the GH-1 right now. It's out of townz. I've looked through day and night footage and I'm not the kind of person to just sit on a tripod. Nothing of what I've recently shot looks like that.

Like I said, the worst is when I get into a situation with lots of grass or something, OR I happen to stumble on a exposure ramp/adjustment.
 
Fallback Rate for slow cards?

Fallback Rate for slow cards?

What about the possibility the camera slows down the bitrate way back for cards that are too slow for 17 Mbs rate even if you set the camera to it?

It would make sense for a consumer/prosumer camera to do that. And of course, the compression would be fine on static shots for too-slow cards, but motion would require more speed as compression efficiency lessened, so instead of having a "write failiure" message, the camera just lowers bitrate to what card can handle.

This is how continuous shooting mode works on most DSLRs - the card make a big difference in speed and duration.
 
stephenvv said:
What about the possibility the camera slows down the bitrate way back for cards that are too slow for 17 Mbs rate even if you set the camera to it?

It would make sense for a consumer/prosumer camera to do that. And of course, the compression would be fine on static shots for too-slow cards, but motion would require more speed as compression efficiency lessened, so instead of having a "write failiure" message, the camera just lowers bitrate to what card can handle.

This is how continuous shooting mode works on most DSLRs - the card make a big difference in speed and duration.
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I dunno how logical this is but it's a possibility. I know that when I FIRST started shooting it was with a slow card. So I decided to go and get SanDisks and I haven't seen that same horrid breakdown.

I'm still looking through my footage.
 
Thanks Kholi. It is very demanding for cards to capture so much information in so a short time. That is why they have to make them faster and faster. At least we gain a little more perspective on the matter.
 
commanderspike said:
...But I can't see how the lens is part of the problem. It doesn't look like an optical cause does it?

....The break down appears to be either a bottleneck in the GH1's processing, and yes the bottleneck might be due to a slow SDHC card and hence an easy fix.
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I don't think anyone outside of Panasonic knows exactly what's causing this.

I could be wrong, but I think the camera mode(s) and lens has more to do with it than the card.

Those contacts at the end of your kit lens are constantly sending and receiving information to/from the camera depending on what kind of mode(s) you are in. Some is saved as metadata, others bits of information are telling the camera how to make subtle adjustments to image data at particular F-stops and focal length combinations (essentially a lens profile). With a manual lens there is no lens profile compensating, it's just "default" so no extra image processing.

Most DSLR camera manufacturers are employing on-the-fly CaC and other specific lens compensating image processing. Which works just fine for shooting stills, but I think that doing that extra number-crunching data work "on the fly" in HD video mode is responsible for that particular "mud" artifact appearing "easily", rather than after sustained handycam shooting full of whip pans or side scrolling close-ups.

As I mentioned "movie camera icon" shooting seems to have the least amount of processing, I also haven't been seeing that particular "mud" artifact in anything I would consider "normal" operation using the combination of manual lenses and "movie camera icon" with 1/50 shutter speed shooting. After shooting I've been evaluating these images on a 102" screen.


I.

Illya Friedman
Hot Rod Cameras
 
that's a good thought too, Iilya. There's a lot going on with the kit lens as well that could be causing some issues. I remember thinking that in the beginning myself.
 
Might be an issue with their kit lenses like you say. There was a firmware update for the G1 lens recently. I've no idea what it was for but interesting to this discussion nonetheless. If this is the case I've certainly access to a number of manual lenses until this is resolved but a big chunk of the price is the included lens. All conjecture at this point but decent troubleshooting from you guys out there. Thanks.
 
I don't think anyone outside of Panasonic knows exactly what's causing this.
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The whole theory by itself would make the Venus ll engine and the whole processing mechanism developed by Panasonic completely flawed. A total conspiracy of sorts. I tend to thing that the ultimate capture point and the one with the most pressure to perform the best is the SD card. It is the point where the bootlenecking of info would be most vulnerable. But at the end it could be a combination of camera performance AND card performance.
 
So we have two lines of thought here: 1) Buy fast branded cards to avoid a possible datarate recording bottleneck. Many of us said we would pay for a fix to improve the 1080 recordings, so maybe the cost of expensive cards is the price worth paying! 2) The extra overhead of live intelligent lens compensation can push the already modest datarate over the edge. Didn't Kholi initially say even pulling focus or changing exposure showed a problem -- maybe that co-incided with a message-send from the lens, overwhelming the processor?

Kholi later gave 1080 a reprieve and reported good results: was this the combination of using the fast card and manual lenses?

Illya said use the movie mode, and Manual mode is not 100% manual (even when using a manual lens?). Kholi, didn't you successfully use manual mode?
 
From Kholi's 'Thrift Store' video:
GH1_05.jpg


Again, a strong vertical pan. Similar if not exact same problem.

Kholi, do you remember what SD card and lens you used for this?
 
What about lens? If it was non-kit lens then we can at least eliminate that as a factor.
 
I'm curious to see pans with the OIS on and off. Wonder if there's any differences, and then pans with manual lenses. Lots of testing to be done...
 
Boz said:
What about lens? If it was non-kit lens then we can at least eliminate that as a factor.
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You can't eliminate that as a factor if the card was too slow.

I didn't really notice it before but I had shot all of my action footage to an Extreme III and I said to myself "I wish I would have just shot it at 1080/24".

That's when I also came to that conclusion that 1080/24 wasn't as bad as I thought it was in motion.

The Thrift Store footage itself is SDHC extreme III's but the action test came before that and I had to record to the crap card because I didn't want to erase what was on the SanDisk EXIII.

I'll try to test this when I get my camera back before I send it out to its new owner.
 
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