Panasonic S5

Peter C. said:
Good points. The A7III only shoots 60p @1080 and 8bit. Yeah it's showing its age, but it's still attractive even at it's current price. I assume they'll maintain its price until the release of the A7IV then offer a discount to clear inventory before they discontinue it. S5 has better IBIS on a gimbal its moot. I think GH5 still has the best IBIS.

As far as the 10bit color, I was watching video comparing the two and surprisingly there was almost no difference between 10 and 8bit. Best explanation was with the high internal compression you end up losing much of the gained color. The effects of bit rate on color bit depth has been brought up in other threads. You can't make conclusions on specs alone.
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10bit is one of those things you only need it when you need it. 8bit can look great and if you don't need to push a grade very hard then 8bit is likely more than enough. Where 10bit becomes important is when shooting a situation where you would get banding in the shot. Once an image has banding it will always have banding. Its kind of like bitrates in compression. 150mbps IPB is likely more than enough for 90% of shooting situations. Its that 10% of an explosion of surf waves or whatever that can break the codec. 10bit is kind of the same thing. Most of the time there are enough colors to reproduce the scene in 8bit. Its those rare situations where it is not enough where 10bit can help and render a clean gradient.

Grading today is very sophisticated with 32bit float which creates in between samples during grading. As long as there are no visual gaps then 32bit float should be able to fill in new samples. Unlike upscaling where the math is very complex to recreate details, 32bit float wants to create a more subtle smooth gradient which is easy for math to do. So a lot of online videos comparing 8bit and 10bit are inaccurate when they try to push a grade and say they look the same. Of course they do because visually the shot looked fine in both 8bit and 10bit anyway. The 32bit float could easily fill in the values as the grade was pushed for both.

Online examples need to shoot something that would normally fall apart with 8bit.

10bit like dynamic range, extra bit depth extra audio bit depth and so forth is all about overhead in a professional environment. Its to have more than needed so there is room to adjust or to make sure something subtle isn't lost. We like more DR so we don't lose the subtle details in the highs and/or lows. We like intraframe formats vs 150mbps IPB to make sure we don't get macro blocking on complex scenes. We like 10bit to make sure we never get any kind of banding in any shot.
 
If you're shooting LOG, aren't you way better off with 10-bit? On the R5, I believe you only get 10-bit shooting LOG and only get 8-bit shooting non-LOG. Something like that.

I thought the primary advantage of intraframe compression was ease of editing. I buy the argument that interframe breaks more easily, but I'm not sure I see that in practice.
 
So a bit of a side-step into talking about auto-focus and the S5.

I've been on the pre-order list for the S5 over 3 weeks now (just got a notification from B&H that the S5 is still back ordered). I had already sold off my be-loved GH5 in expectation of buying the S5.

As it became apparent that I wouldn't be shooting with the S5 for the couple of things I had scheduled, primarily shooting an episode of a zombie show called REANIMATED, I had to find an available, cheap, stand-in.

Long story short, I ended up getting a Olympus EM1 MII, primarily because it was cheap ($700 out the door), has non-crop 4K, purportedly had good auto-focus, and I was interested in the colors some people rave about. I knew the IBIS was as good or better as the GH5, and that it wouldn't have anything near the codecs available for video.

So after testing the crap out of it, I've been borderline shocked about a couple of things. One, it has much better colors then the GH5. Like not close. Color is subjective of course, but I felt like I was always fighting the GH5 to make the colors look good; to make the image a bit less video-y. While not offensively bad, I could never get the image to "sing" no matter what profile, grade, or bit rate I used.

The color straight out of the box on the Oly is superb. Essentially don't have do a thing to it. While the dynamic range on the EM1 MII is limited, probably a stop less then the GH5, the better colors are worth it (it should be noted that I usually do not shoot log, but rather try to get the best look straight out of camera). Even though it's 8 bit, my shots of a clear blue sky didn't band at all. While I wouldn't want to grade it, that's the point - I don't need to.

But that wasn't the shocking part (I long suspected the colors would be better then the GH5). What was shocking is how good the auto-focus is (assuming you have the latest firmware). It, like the Sony A7sIII, has some sort of voodoo magic happening where it seems to know what you want in focus. The transitions are usually smooth, precise, and rarely hunts. Once it's locked on, it doesn't pulse or hunt.

Simply put, it's good enough to rely upon for money situations, like the bride coming down the isle or a big one-chance only special effect. It just works.

It's as game changing for me as was good IBIS. Once you've had good IBIS, you're going to be very unwilling to use a camera w/o the feature. The same is now true for me for auto-focus. For small shoots with no crew/small crew, it allows the DP to concentrate far more on framing and performance as opposed to pulling focus. While it isn't perfect, it's pretty dang good (especially considering that it's a used 3.5 year old camera from a company that literally was sold off this week).

While I know the S5 smokes the Oly (and GH5) in dynamic range and in low light, I'm not so sure it beats it in color science. I know the S5 doesn't have better IBIS, and most importantly, it has vastly worse auto-focus. I previously thought good auto-focus was for blogs only, but no more. It's an incredibly usable, needed, tool for the indie film maker.

All of which has me re-thinking my would-be S5 purchase once the camera's back in stock. It's hard to go back to the non auto-focus farm once you've seen Oly....
 
Olympus had an AF update last year that people raved about. Never tried it, but it wasn't always like that.

A lot of people always said good things about the E-M1 Mark II.

And it's great to see/hear you say that about AF because it's very frustrating when people don't realize how useful reliable AF is.
 
Regarding back-order @ B&H, I ordered the S5 kit at Best Buy last night and it is supposed to be delivered tomorrow. I missed the free Sigma, but FexEx says they’re delivering before end of business tomorrow.
 
Steve Ogden said:
Regarding back-order @ B&H, I ordered the S5 kit at Best Buy last night and it I missed the free Sigma, but FexEx says they’re delivering before end of business tomorrow.
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Yeah, that's why I'm waiting for it get into stock at B&H - presumably I'd still be in line for the bonus lens....

...If I order it.

That's how miraculous getting usable auto-focus has been to me. Easily as big as discovering what good IBIS can do.

And make no mistake, I can pull focus. Started making movies back in the early '90's, moving from a wind-up Bolex, to an Arri-S, to early video cameras like the Canon "chainsaw", the JVC GYU 100, all the way up to the modern hybrids/video cameras.

But the Oly is the first camera I've used that had truly usable AF. Now thinking I'll stand pat and see what shakes lose in the next couple of months in the MFT format, or maybe wait a year to pick up a used A7sIII.
 
jdv said:
...

And let me address the other elephant in the room - Panasonic marketing this camera (or allowing the early reviewers to do it for them) as a full frame GH5 is missing the mark. While I love almost everything besides the legendarily poor auto-focus on the GH5: its dedicated buttons, IBIS, resolution options, and menu system - the actual image is not awesome. As in not at all awesome. Color heavily baked into every profile (which all are essentially the same one with more or less color & contrast); it's now easily the worst color science of any major camera system. The image gets the job done, but nothing more...
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I really shouldn't comment, as this is highly subjective, but to me, the S5 is exactly to the the tee identical to the S1H (sans anti-aliasing filter) as far as 4K image quality when using V-Log and V-Gamut. They are the most accurate color reproduction of all the latest 2020 cameras, with Sony being dead last. In the last year, do you know how many times I used a color profile other than V-Log?

Once.

People who buy these cameras want superior dynamic range, not Rec-709 limited stuff. No one ever uses profiles other than V-Log, even in m43 unless they are starving for light.
 
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Here is some stuff I shot this past weekend. All shot in Natural color settings. Untouched in post. All handheld, Rokinon 35mm, 50mm and 85mm.

 
Brandon Rice said:
Here is some stuff I shot this past weekend. All shot in Natural color settings. Untouched in post. All handheld, Rokinon 35mm, 50mm and 85mm.

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Nice job. Looks good I can feel your style. No matter how you film or what camera you use most of it comes down to the skill of the operator. I think people on forums get carried away with their opinions. I'm glad we don't use the same cameras and film the same way.
 
Nice color, Brandon. Nice compositions. What apertures are you using on the Rokinons? I find they can get "interesting" wide open but this all looks pretty clean to me
 
Peter C. said:
Nice job. Looks good I can feel your style. No matter how you film or what camera you use most of it comes down to the skill of the operator. I think people on forums get carried away with their opinions. I'm glad we don't use the same cameras and film the same way.
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Thanks for checking it out. I agree that it's the operator that matters most for sure.
 
ahalpert said:
Nice color, Brandon. Nice compositions. What apertures are you using on the Rokinons? I find they can get "interesting" wide open but this all looks pretty clean to me
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Thanks! I usually never open them up all the way... f2.4 is usually as far as I'll go. Some of this stuff was at f4 to be honest. I love that I can close down and still have a super clean image now.
 
NorBro said:
Olympus had an AF update last year that people raved about. Never tried it, but it wasn't always like that.

A lot of people always said good things about the E-M1 Mark II.

And it's great to see/hear you say that about AF because it's very frustrating when people don't realize how useful reliable AF is.
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Here's one of the quick tests I did with the with the em1 mII over the weekend, primarily to check the colors. I was blown away by them (which are straight out of camera, no tweaks, nothing), the IBIS (I was doing sh#@ job holding the camera as it was windy as hell and I missed lunch but still several usable shots), and the simply great AF.

AF wise, I think there was no more than 2 shots and only for a second - a miracle considering the poor job by me. I couldn't see the screen at all b/c it was so bright, but I wasn't worried. I knew I'd get something usable and the camera did not disappoint.

Best of all, none of the dreaded pulsing which IMO is nearly as bad as a shot completely out of focus.

https://youtu.be/v29gL4JnP2E
 
It's all too wide and deep to analyze, but that location looks nice.

Test something in front of the lens with all of the above in the background and you'll know more (but I have little doubt Olympus has better AF than Panasonic...O isn't a threat to Canon or Sony).

Did you cancel the S5?
 
NorBro said:
It's all too wide and deep to analyze, but that location looks nice.

Test something in front of the lens with all of the above in the background and you'll know more (but I have little doubt Olympus has better AF than Panasonic...O isn't a threat to Canon or Sony).

Did you cancel the S5?
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Hey, thanks for checking out the video.

Oh yeah, been testing the crap out of it. The AF works incredibly well, and in very dim light to boot. You can control the "sensitivity" but not the speed of the transition (although I'm starting to think that when Olympus says sensitivity, they mean speed - more testing needed). In any event, no matter what setting you have it at, it works well (including with the Sigma 16mm 1.4, which surprised me a bit).

Not perfect of course, but considering my experience with the GH5 and other Panasonic cameras, it's been an eye-opening experience. I can now simply hand off the camera to a relatively inexperienced shooter for second unit stuff or B-roll and know that 95% (or more) of what they shoot will be in focus, without pulsing. That's a pretty freakin' huge deal.

I did the test I linked to only to check out the colors, which IMO are also vastly improved over the GH5. Color science is subjective of course, but not needing to grade like mad to make skin tones look human is also a big deal. I literally need do nothing with the Oly to get wonderful results straight out of camera.

Lastly, yup, I canceled the S5 order. This little Oly has renewed my interest in MFT, but more importantly, made me realize ordering a $2000 camera w/o good AF in late 2020 is silly, at least for my needs. AF a major tool that for me, as a small time indie movie producer & youtube guy, is nearly invaluable....

...Also, the S5 is still not in stock at B&H.

I hope Panasonic can sort out their AF issues moving forward as I love their cameras, but until they do, I'll be hoping Olympus (well, the company that bought them) means what they say when they claim they will now focus more heavily on video.
 
NorBro said:
I'm sure you know, but they have their heavily-discounted III as well with some nifty improvements for almost the same price as the II:

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1540739-REG/olympus_v207100bu000_om_d_e_m1_mark_iii.html
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Thanks! Yeah, with any luck I'll be picking up the Mark III very soon as my A-cam. It addresses the lack of slo-motion, lack of joy-stick (which are far more useful than I thought they'd be), and lack of auto-ISO in manual video mode.

It also supposedly has even better IBIS and AF, which is crazy to think about. The Mark III also has a better processor, which is why it can do slo-mo (120p in HD). It also is supposed to produce less noise then the Mark II at higher ISOs.

Also, the Mark III clears up any confusion about speed & sensitivity with AF by giving each their own separate settings.

Lastly, the Mark III can now be charged & powered with a USB battery, an awesome addition in its own right.

So yeah, I want one pretty bad....
 
You can see the video sharpness in the clip below, but I thought it was a good example of taking a relatively mediocre camera (compared to options) and filming a high-end looking commercial with it.

 
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My Russian's a little rusty, but that commercial looks real good.

I just saw an used em1 MII for $650 at Robert's, making it perhaps the best bang for buck camera... ever.
 
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