Panasonic S5

DLD said:
Johnny from CinemaNoLonger5D has a review and a clip. The clip looks meh.
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Based on what I saw in A7SIII videos, I would judge the S5 by the best footage you see online and not the worst

Samuel H said:
The review by Tony and Chelsea Northrup also has a section about video AF (which is the only bit I watched), and the S5 fails the test miserably here as well.
https://youtu.be/XNNW_JAsGgQ?t=274
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I am so un-surprised. I feel like if Panasonic had made material improvements to their AF, it would have been all over their marketing. The only language I saw was about face tracking and stuff. But that improvement has to do with choosing what to focus on but not actually keeping it in focus as it moves
 
Samuel H said:
The review by Tony and Chelsea Northrup also has a section about video AF (which is the only bit I watched), and the S5 fails the test miserably here as well...
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Contrast detect will always struggle in that type of lighting.

And.

The performance heavily depends on the "speed" and "sensitivity" settings.

And Tony is wrong about Panasonic needing to invest into phase-detect auto focus. The Sony sensor itself has 693 phase-detect AF points. Panasonic, obviously, cripples it and uses the remaining 425 contrast-detect points. Because, blah-blah-blah, yadda-yadda-yadda.

ahalpert said:
Based on what I saw in A7SIII videos, I would judge the S5 by the best footage you see online and not the worst
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I did. I base it on (one of the) the best YouTube videographer work. This only proves that S5 ain't Leica (or S1H).


ahalpert said:
I am so un-surprised. I feel like if Panasonic had made material improvements to their AF, it would have been all over their marketing. The only language I saw was about face tracking and stuff. But that improvement has to do with choosing what to focus on but not actually keeping it in focus as it moves
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We've discussed how Panasonic could have improved auto focus.

1) Phase-detect.
2) Lidar
3) AI.

None of that has happened. Because blah-blah-blah, yadda, yadda, yadda.

Technically speaking, Panasonic left itself some wiggle room to improve the AF, if the review of the preproduction models prove to be - what's the word I was using? ... oh, yeah - "meh". Well, they are meh. It even makes the "unbiased" reviewers squirm.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dov5TYkR2B0

Matt, the Panasonic poobah, is on a hot seat and his check dispensing skills don't help much. Undone is undone too.

PS. Tony Northrup deflects the AF problem the best. He just keeps the camera rolling without saying a thing. It's a temporary delay in the execution.
 
filmguy123 said:
Yes, can't see any reason not to be extremely intrigued especially if you are already speedboosting EF. Just get the Sigma MC-1 adapter and add this, you'll maintain similar workflow and matching (but expanded) curves and color. No-brainer IMO!



Sure, but it's much closer to a small S1H - this has far better video tools, codecs, etc. than the S1 did. The S1 has a very questionably place in the lineup now... IMO it's basically a choice between the S5, S1R, or S1H - and with the S5 intro, the S1R and S1H are essentially niche cameras at this point. The S1H is twice the cost and is a clear winner in a few categories - but it's also a trade-off, with the S5 having the size/weight advantage as well as better AF according to newshooter.
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I just put my GH5S up for sale, and I will purchase the S5 to go along with my S1H. Looks like I will have to add an additional Ninja V for longer form content, or simply add a timed circuit to automatically start record after 30 minutes. I knew my engineering degree was good for something! :grin:
 
DLD said:
I did. I base it on (one of the) the best YouTube videographer work. This only proves that S5 ain't Leica (or S1H).
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He did not produce the best-looking A7SIII footage IMO. I thought Brandon Li and Matti haappoje got better results.

But Haapoje didn't produce the best R5 footage IMO.

That's why I said judge the camera by the best footage you see, not the best cameraman
 
DLD said:
So, there are workarounds.
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Yeah, that's the last thing I want to hear about a brand new $2000 camera w/o a lens in late 2020 from a company that obviously can not address what is a major issue with its product line. And of course, we have no idea just how many out of focus shots he had to reject while compiling the video you link to (which is why vlog style reviews are so much better for judging a camera's stabilization and autofocus).

Here's a very real world problem I am faced with - I've just been offered a reality TV show pilot that's going to need 3 cameras, which the show is going to buy, then pass on to me if the show sells. While I know I can focus manually, I know other people in my crew can't - at least not reliably enough to count on.

So while I think that Panasonic makes superior cameras in terms of IBIS, menus systems, and basic usability, the one thing I absolutely have to have - in focus footage - is far from guaranteed with literally any of their products.

What was acceptable from the GH5 3 and a half years ago is not now. The only way I could justify the S5 to the producers would be to tell them they're getting a very good kit lens and a very good camera (albeit with some focus issues) for $1500 a pop out the door and we'd cut around the out of focus shots and pulsing. But of course I can't tell them that. With tax, the S5 is $2500 out the door with a kit lens.

For less money - a lot less in fact - I can get the now year old RP that will also look better and have better auto focus. And that's including if I use budget minded EF lenses which will work just as well using a $99 adapter. It's not too hard to imagine me buying a "hero" R6 as the main camera and two RPs....

And that's what I meant by Panny needing to use the S5 as a loss leader if they want people to jump to the L mount. For marginally more money I can get a R6 that will look better, have equal or better IBIS, a huge choice of lenses, and of course, auto focus that works with those lenses.

Likewise, Sony will announce the a7c in a week for a price equal to the S5. The a7c will almost certainly crush the S5 for IBIS, auto-focus, lens availability, and maybe even color science.

And let me address the other elephant in the room - Panasonic marketing this camera (or allowing the early reviewers to do it for them) as a full frame GH5 is missing the mark. While I love almost everything besides the legendarily poor auto-focus on the GH5: its dedicated buttons, IBIS, resolution options, and menu system - the actual image is not awesome. As in not at all awesome. Color heavily baked into every profile (which all are essentially the same one with more or less color & contrast); it's now easily the worst color science of any major camera system. The image gets the job done, but nothing more.

It does not spark joy as my wife would say.

So telling me it's a full frame GH5 but with fewer codec options and no fix for auto-focus requiring all new lenses (most of which are not available) to boot is wishful thinking at its worst. I already have a GH5 - I want something better. Like way better, not just saying "but it's full frame!" or "it's got one more stop of dynamic range over the GH5s!". All the more so if doing do requires me to commit to a different lens lineup.

It's simply not enough given what Sony, Canon, and God forbid even Nikon are doing right now. Which is confirmed by all the footage I've seen from the S5 - nothing's blown me away or gotten me even once to say "Wow." In the direct comparisons with the GH5 I've seen, the footage is all but identical excepting depth of field.

And that's not good enough.

All of which leads me again to question why in the world Panasonic believes that they can charge a premium price for this camera. Sure, two years ago the S5 for $2000 would have been a great deal. But not now. Would I use an S5? Of course. I've almost pulled the trigger on one a couple of times because I love Panny. But then my mind reminds that auto focus isn't just a gimmick that I'd only use a couple of times (like anamorphic cough cough), but rather one that is essential for many styles of shooting. Essential for novice shooters. Essential for many producers. My mind reminds me that I do not always want to have to shoot log if I want skin-tones that don't look like Martian invaders.

I also remind myself that Panasonic, instead of sticking with MFT and dropping a killer GH6 on the market this year, chose to chase a market trend from Sony & Canon which had a 10 year and 40 year head start respectively for lenses. I remind myself that they did so despite having sold a mountain of GH5's and G9's.

Your mileage may vary of course - you may like the colors coming out of camera or feel the IBIS and autofocus are good enough for your style of work. Or maybe you just hate the Canon cripple hammer too much, or dislike Sony's coldly competent (and expensive) approach. I get that, I really do. It's part of why I've also spent thousands of dollars on Panasonic gear instead of those two other brands in the past 3 and half years.

And also why I won't be this time around... or likely ever again.
 
JV, Panasonic - which is rumored to be folding its camera division into another branch - doesn't follow Sony per se but rather takes its orders from the cartel as a whole. Everyone has to offer something crippled and, in Panasonic's case, it's auto focus. As I had mentioned, Sony A7III, Nikon Z6, Sigma fp, Panasonic S1/S1H/S5 all have the same Sony sensor. Sony's crippling its codec to 8 bits. Nikon also has a relatively crappy video AF, plus it line skips for 4K. Canon EOS R has a bad center crop. R5 and R6 are timer crippled. That's what you get with a cartel. And the problem is that the aftermarket hacks are too few and too far in between. They had a solid chance to make this pattern of crippling far less prevalent. Some problems are probably a bit too hard to overcome but, on others, they hadn't given it a second thought.
 
Back in the day, auto-focus sucked.

It's funny how many people crave 4K when back in the day they were fine with SD?

I wish AF hadn't come around because I'm a good focus puller and there goes my competitive advantage. Increased keeper rate and shot possibilities aside, this is an arms race.

I don't need AF all the time, but when I'm doing gimbal moves at mid- to close-range, when I'm shooting telephoto of a moving subject, or when I have shallow DOF interview shots of a shifter (particularly with an unmanned camera), AF would really come in handy. And for all the shots where I don't really need it, hopefully it will speed me up.

It's kind of like how Canikon killed more serious stills camera companies by developing killer AF, no?
 
ahalpert said:
... It's kind of like how Canikon killed more serious stills camera companies by developing killer AF, no?
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No. The smartphone did. It also created another six billion amateur selfie takers and vertical video shooters.

Smartphones to serious photographers are the frozen meals to fine dining. But both could be quite tasty in their own way.
 
combatentropy said:
No one was fine with SD --- neither the size nor the shape --- except in the sense that it is what we're stuck with, so we might as well stop complaining.
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Right but you shot it and got paid because there was no alternative. You didnt go on strike

I hate buzzing focus. But there was hitherto no real alternative to pulling it manually

I'm not saying I'll never pull manually again. But the AF options have gotten really good
 
ahalpert said:
And for all the shots where I don't really need it, hopefully it will speed me up.
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This is the main thing for me here. Well, also the increased keeper rate, because at 4k I'm not good enough for shallow-DoF shots. But just being able to rely on the camera for AF and being able to concentrate on other stuff, and get more shots in the can in a day: that's what I want out of AF.
 
Brandon Rice said:
Also... just pre-ordered one.
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And... me too.

Which might surprise anyone who's read this whole thread. But here's the thing....

Canon is ridiculous. The entire over-heating deal, line skipping, and bizarrely bad (worse then the S5) auto-focus on the R6 when outdoors, the still bad dynamic range, and Lord only knows what other Canon cripple hammers are waiting for buyers, and I just can't trust these cameras. Also, and this might just be my bad interpretation of the footage, but there always seems to be a thin film of schmutz on the footage from the R5/6. It could just be youtube compression, but every frame of footage I saw from the R5/6 looked soft, just slightly out of focus. Again, it could be over-aggressive noise reduction by the people posting, but it never looked as good as I wanted it to.

In any event, the reality is that with the over-heating drama these cameras are a hard pass for me.

The Sony A7sIII is... simply too costly for me. While it looks to be the FF hybrid camera to buy, the cost of the camera along with the prospect of buying Sony glass - which I've never loved - and it's just a bridge too far for me. Especially when you consider....

For $300 extra, the S5 comes with 2 lenses if you get in there in time for the promo deal. As far as bang-for-buck goes, the S5 is the obvious winner. For less than $2500 out the door (which included 1 day shipping), I get one of the best full frame cameras on earth plus 2 pretty sweet lenses. Tough to say no to that.

All the more so because the Sony A7c is a fairly silly camera for narrative work. I had hopes maybe Sony wouldn't cripple their newer, lower segment cameras, but by not even putting in the new operating system into the A7c, Sony's telling consumers what they think of us.

But the truth is that the second I sold my GH5, I immediately missed it. Like bad. It's not perfect - the colors and dynamic range being my 2 biggest beefs - but my Gosh, it's light year's ahead of the competition for sheer out-of-the-box usability. The S5 looks to be just as much a work horse. And that counts for a lot.

Some of the things I complained about the S5 (like the only -12db recording option and lack of intra-frame recording options) will hopefully be addressed by firmware updates. The auto-focus... well, I know it will never be A7sIII good, but I'm guessing it will be good enough for what I do, which is mostly narrative work. I may well need to pick up an RP or Oly EM1 MII as B-cams for autofocus on multi-cam shoots, but until then, a full frame GH5 (mostly) will have to do. The lack of a full sized HDMI on the S5 is simply dumb; an unforced error likely to be corrected if there's ever a S5 MII.

Underlying all of this of course is Panasonic's lack of a GH6 release the year. While I think they will release it at some point, I suspect it will be aimed either at vloggers or birders, and not much in-between. I'm pretty sure they've milked what they can out of MFT sensors, so hoping for 2 stops better dynamic range or vastly better low light performance is likely wishful thinking; probably always has been. This especially true if the new sensor has the rumored 40 mega-pixels....

My observation about Panasonic's failing to move the needle with this camera at this price remains true however - there's 94 pages in this section about the A7sIII and over a 100 for the R5/6 - but only 14 pages for the S5.

Yet for GH5 users on a budget who want more, there really is no choice. Panny probably should have included the kit lens for the $2000 MSRP or done something else to lure in Canon/Sony owners, but perhaps Panasonic is content with 5% of the market; hoping to grow it organically. At some point, I think that Panasonic will simply let MFT die on the vine after the GH6 is out, and honestly I think that's probably the right call.

So a mea culpa from me (mostly).
 
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I love my S1. The image is just where it needs to be IMO.

I love the price and features on the S5. The micro HDMI sucks though. I hope they update the S1 do to external RAW.

But yeah I love the reliability and ease of use with Panasonic. Its really my main concern these days.
 
And let's not forget synchro scan. I did a shoot on GH5 today where it took the LED banding right out. I've preordered an A7SIII....but I'm pretty sure it doesn't have extended clear scan which is what sony calls it...

And re:lenses - my plan is to just buy a Sigma 24-70 FE for now and keep using my Canon lenses with the A7SIII when I need other focal lengths. For what I want to do with the A7SIII - mostly gimbal shots- the 24-70 will cover 75-90% of my needs. Ultra wide angle lenses don't need AF as badly. Personally, I'll probably be on a different camera for longer lens stuff
 
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And it looks like shipping's been delayed. Today had been the official start of shipping, but that doesn't look like it's happening.

Amazon now saying release date is October 19th, while Adorama and B&H now saying Sept. 30th. I pre-ordered 2 weeks ago from B&H and was told that they'd be receiving enough cameras for me to get mine in the first batch, but no joy - my order also saying it won't be shipped until the 30th.

This seems quite odd considering that early reviewers have had copies in their hands for nearly 2 months now (and those copies looked to be pretty finalized). Perhaps Panasonic is jamming in new firmware ala Canon, but considering Panny just announced a small firmware upgrade yesterday (for uploading files to the cloud) that seems unlikely....

...As does over-whelming demand.

So not sure what is happening, other then I'm not terribly happy right now.
 
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