Panasonic S1 2.0 is out

Bare minimum, you'll always have less resolution and larger noise from a sensor crop. If you're using an OLPF, I'm pretty sure you're going to run into a big issue with its optimization when you crop
 
Maybe we'll see more cameras like BM's 12K, and some with AI/software assisting with the image creation.
 
ahalpert said:
Sure, but that was kind of my point: that any strong reactions in favor of or against the sensor size are basically fashion statements. Either a fashion statement by people who see it as bigger and better, or a fashion statement reacting against those people because they're amateurs. And the high-end camerapeople in the Arri marketing materials are obviously also making a fashion statement. Some of what they're saying is complete bulls*%t - like about field of view. There's no inherent difference in field of view between formats (except perhaps as you say for creating ultra-wides, which are rarely used anyway).

But I'm saying that once some big-name DP uses the tool and writes it up in American Cinematographer, it becomes acceptable to show your approval.

And there are definitely advantages to full-frame: light sensitivity, selective focus on wide-angles, superior optical quality at equivalent DOF. But that's about it. Like - you talk about f/0.95 on M43, but you're sort of pushing the envelope there. On a medium format camera, you'd be at an f/2.8 or whatever and likely have far better IQ.

There are also drawbacks to using focal reducers, enough so that some eschew them entirely.

Anyway, my point was absolutely not that full-frame is superior to S35. Just that there's nothing wrong with it, and it has some advantages (obviously deep focus is not one of them).
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Agreed. Nothing wrong with any format. Even m43. My position is purely not from a one format is wrong perspective but that it doesn't really matter and just use the right tool for the job or the one that works best for the job.

I also agree one of FF's strengths is not having to use lenses at insane wide open apertures. I almost switched from my GH4 to the Canon R or RP for stills because of that. A FF f2.8 70-200 zoom has the same DOF as f1.4 on m43 which is almost impossible to achieve in a telephoto zoom. so from a EF lens perspective yes FF will likely always be optically better. With that said native m43 prime lenses tend to perform better at wider apertures. A sweet spot for a FF lens might be f5.6 while on a native m43 lens it might be f2.8 or f4.0. f0.95 does kind of suck however and I never bought into it for that reason. It was cool that it could be done but it was just too much. Similar to the Rokinon lenses at f1.4. Impressive they could open up that much but realistically they were only acceptable at f2.8 and only really good at f5.6.

F stop on a lens however is the same on any sensor in terms of brightness. FF may be able to push ISO a bit harder but f2.8 at ISO 400 is the same across m43, APS-C and FF. The extra sensitivity comes from being able to push ISO harder which I'm not a fan of on any sensor.

Focal reducers do have the added benefit of gaining a stop without using ISO. So while a focal reducer may add some optical artifacts to the image it provides a stop advantage without having to touch ISO. Suddenly m43 can have the same exposure at ISO 1600 vs ISO 3200 on FF which can make a difference. I think I much prefer slight optical artifacts over ISO related artifacts given the choice.
 
NorBro said:
It would be nice if cameras were built with full-frame sensors and interchangeable mounts, and optimized in all crop modes and settings (currently they are not which is why it doesn't work well).

But if possible, Panasonic could have a S1H with a MFT mount and all existing MFT users could use their glass in the S16 mode. Or you can use a full-frame lens and have extreme range.
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I personally think this is trying too hard to go down the one size fits all hybrid approach vs optimizing for the best results for one true purpose. FF stills cameras can kind of do that now like the Canon RP and R. They can crop in on the sensor using a 10MP portion for a lower resolution APS-C like still when using EF-S lenses. Its far from wonderful for stills and far below what a APS-C camera could do on its own. For 4k video it may not matter as much since we only really need 4k resolution from the sensor. That really limits how lenses can be used however.

Assuming the Panasonic S series cameras did that it would really limit the m43 lenses to just video. A nice option but not enough of a reason for many to keep m43 lenses around. Plus in the case of Canon they are only dropping from FF to APSC. In the case of Panasonic they would be dropping from FF to m43 which is a massive jump. The S5 for example has a 6000 pixel wide sensor. Dropping to a m43 crop would result in 3000 pixels wide or far shorter than what's needed for even UHD. Canon kind of does this on the M6 mark2 which I just purchased for stills. Except Canon line skips the full sensor width for 3480 thats then upscaled to 3840. The full sensor and less of an upscale actually results in some decent looking smooth 4k video. If the S5 did that it would be very soft and really bad stills. The S5 would need a much higher resolution sensor like the 32 MP on the M6 mark2 to pull off something halfway decent and even then it would have been a 1:1 bayer crop at 3480 upscaled to 4k which would look really soft compared to all other Panasonic cameras. I doubt thats something Panasonic was willing to do. They would really need a 7680 wide sensor to pull off the kind of crop to make use of m43 lenses just to achieve a decent 1:1 UHD video. DCI would require even more at 8192. I just don't see how that would have ever been an option for Panasonic.

Only possible way Panasonic could have maybe pulled this off would be if the S series of cameras was APS-C and not FF or went with a very dense 8k sensor.

S1R could have maybe pulled it off but that limits the flexible mount choice to that one camera and they could never use a lower resolution sensor in any other model.
 
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Thomas Smet said:
F stop on a lens however is the same on any sensor in terms of brightness. FF may be able to push ISO a bit harder but f2.8 at ISO 400 is the same across m43, APS-C and FF. The extra sensitivity comes from being able to push ISO harder which I'm not a fan of on any sensor.
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Sure but who cares as long as you can get equivalent DR/noise/color performance at that higher ISO. My a7siii at ISO 12800 is cleaner than my GH5 at ISO 800.
 
Thomas Smet said:
I personally think this is trying too hard to go down the one size fits all hybrid approach vs optimizing for the best results for one true purpose. FF stills cameras can kind of do that now like the Canon RP and R. They can crop in on the sensor using a 10MP portion for a lower resolution APS-C like still when using EF-S lenses. Its far from wonderful for stills and far below what a APS-C camera could do on its own. For 4k video it may not matter as much since we only really need 4k resolution from the sensor. That really limits how lenses can be used however.

Assuming the Panasonic S series cameras did that it would really limit the m43 lenses to just video. A nice option but not enough of a reason for many to keep m43 lenses around. Plus in the case of Canon they are only dropping from FF to APSC. In the case of Panasonic they would be dropping from FF to m43 which is a massive jump. The S5 for example has a 6000 pixel wide sensor. Dropping to a m43 crop would result in 3000 pixels wide or far shorter than what's needed for even UHD. Canon kind of does this on the M6 mark2 which I just purchased for stills. Except Canon line skips the full sensor width for 3480 thats then upscaled to 3840. The full sensor and less of an upscale actually results in some decent looking smooth 4k video. If the S5 did that it would be very soft and really bad stills. The S5 would need a much higher resolution sensor like the 32 MP on the M6 mark2 to pull off something halfway decent and even then it would have been a 1:1 bayer crop at 3480 upscaled to 4k which would look really soft compared to all other Panasonic cameras. I doubt thats something Panasonic was willing to do. They would really need a 7680 wide sensor to pull off the kind of crop to make use of m43 lenses just to achieve a decent 1:1 UHD video. DCI would require even more at 8192. I just don't see how that would have ever been an option for Panasonic.

Only possible way Panasonic could have maybe pulled this off would be if the S series of cameras was APS-C and not FF or went with a very dense 8k sensor.

S1R could have maybe pulled it off but that limits the flexible mount choice to that one camera and they could never use a lower resolution sensor in any other model.
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Panasonic calls it the 'pixel/pixel' mode on the S1, etc.

The S35 mode looks better (arguably as good as full-frame), but maybe this tighter setting would pass for some.

I would definitely use it for a tighter shot when needed.

[Random video]

 
Thomas Smet said:
With that said native m43 prime lenses tend to perform better at wider apertures. A sweet spot for a FF lens might be f5.6 while on a native m43 lens it might be f2.8 or f4.0. f0.95 does kind of suck however and I never bought into it for that reason. It was cool that it could be done but it was just too much. Similar to the Rokinon lenses at f1.4. Impressive they could open up that much but realistically they were only acceptable at f2.8 and only really good at f5.6.
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btw it looks like the Lumix 24-70 f/2.8 has a better MTF chart at f/2.8 than the Lumix 12-35 does

b22c0676615ee9883a12659a0f8b7f07.jpg

ast-1215940.jpg
 
NorBro said:
Panasonic calls it the 'pixel/pixel' mode on the S1, etc.

The S35 mode looks better (arguably as good as full-frame), but maybe this tighter setting would pass for some.

I would definitely use it for a tighter shot when needed.

[Random video]

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pixel/pixel mode is for APS-C size and not m43. The sensor is still only 6000 pixels wide. Cropping down to fit the image circle of a m43 lens would mean 3000 pixel wide. APS-C lenses have an image circle large enough for 3840 pixels on a 6000 wide sensor. That would be a 6MP portion of the sensor. Thats physically just not possible. Ok it is but it would be practically useless for stills or video. Who would shoot stills that way when they can get 20 MP with the same lens on the GH5? Its just not practical. Unless one was ok having 3k video to scale down or reframe for HD delivery.
 
ahalpert said:
btw it looks like the Lumix 24-70 f/2.8 has a better MTF chart at f/2.8 than the Lumix 12-35 does

View attachment 143001

View attachment 143002
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Those L series lenses are insanely good. Top of their game. The 12-35 always left a lot to be desired. I also mentioned primes were better on m43. Zooms always sucked for native m43. They used way too much in body correction to sharpen them up because they really were not great glass. Olympus made much better native m43 zooms but the lack of stabilization really killed them for a lot of users.
 
For photos, there's zero appeal.

But for video, sensor cropping isn't anything new and I think there could have been some more interest as sensor sizes continued to grow, but I also think MFT-sized sensor/FOV won't survive and will all eventually be replaced by phones which will have ridiculous zoom lenses with the aforementioned AI, and it's all just a waste of time thinking about it.

I think we'll just have excellent full-frame cinema cameras with S35 modes (like ARRI just updated theirs).

And we'll see what happens to standalone S35 cinema cameras.
 
Thomas Smet said:
Those L series lenses are insanely good. Top of their game. The 12-35 always left a lot to be desired. I also mentioned primes were better on m43. Zooms always sucked for native m43. They used way too much in body correction to sharpen them up because they really were not great glass. Olympus made much better native m43 zooms but the lack of stabilization really killed them for a lot of users.
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Here's the PANASONIC LEICA DG SUMMILUX 25mm / F1.4 II ASPH:

H-XA025_04_MTF.jpg

And the Lumix S Pro 50mm f/1.4:

Panasonic-LUMIX-S-Pro-50mm-f1.4-L-Mount-Lens3.jpg

And the Olympus M.ZUIKO DIGITAL ED 25mm F1.2 PRO:

000085684.gif

That Olympus looks worse at f/2.8 than the Lumix 50mm does at f/1.4. I don't buy the theory of a wider sweet spot for m43 lenses.
 
NorBro said:
For photos, there's zero appeal.

But for video, sensor cropping isn't anything new and I think there could have been some more interest as sensor sizes continued to grow, but I also think MFT-sized sensor/FOV won't survive and will all eventually be replaced by phones which will have ridiculous zoom lenses with the aforementioned AI, and it's all just a waste of time thinking about it.

I think we'll just have excellent full-frame cinema cameras with S35 modes (like ARRI just updated theirs).

And we'll see what happens to standalone S35 cinema cameras.
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No its nothing new and we used ETC mode on the GH4 and GH5 a lot for 1:1 HD recording as well. I'm just saying that doesn't seem like a viable direction for Panasonic anymore on a FF camera. As nice as it would be to be able to use m43 lenses on the S5 having those lenses be limited to HD resolution video and horrible 3000 pixel stills just doesn't seem very realistic at all to bother with it as a feature. I guess a few people who like HD video might have found some value but I personally found the quality of the video you posted to be horrible when using pixel/pixel mode. Still Panasonic did add the feature to support HD video so I guess somebody out there would have slapped on a m43 lens just for that feature but it just seems way too limiting to me. I think Panasonic would have had more negative press over its limitations than they would have positive press. Plus they may have had to limit what the mount could do with FF lenses in order to support what is really a niche use case of the camera.

Using the same m43 lens on a GH5 to flip a switch to use ETC mode or the same L series lens on the S5 for pixel/pixel mode is a bit different than supporting a set of lenses that can only be used with those modes. It would make the S5 a practically useless investment for those with m43 glass just to use that inferior quality feature. They would really be much better off saving money and getting a GH5 that can do a similar crop mode for HD video using the same lenses for regular crop mode stills and video.

I don't think s35mm is going anywhere just yet. Its still a very valid format and a ton of great movies are still shot in 2.8k on the s35mm Alexa.
 
ahalpert said:
Here's the PANASONIC LEICA DG SUMMILUX 25mm / F1.4 II ASPH:

View attachment 143003

And the Lumix S Pro 50mm f/1.4:

View attachment 143004

And the Olympus M.ZUIKO DIGITAL ED 25mm F1.2 PRO:

View attachment 143005

That Olympus looks worse at f/2.8 than the Lumix 50mm does at f/1.4. I don't buy the theory of a wider sweet spot for m43 lenses.
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Again you are comparing the insanely expensive L series glass designed for mirrorless FF. I was talking traditional EF or Nikon FF glass. Even the R series glass is much better today.

If one can afford the S5 and L series glass its an insanely beautiful camera to have. I really wanted to go that route but just could not justify the cost. I find some Fuji, Sony and other lenses designed for mirrorless to be vastly superior than the older lenses as well. Mirrorless was always the way to go.
 
Thomas Smet said:
...but I personally found the quality of the video you posted to be horrible when using pixel/pixel mode.
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ha...I don't know if you would have said that a few years ago when you spent most of your time here as a well-needed voice for the Panasonic/MFT community, but I think the Blackmagic quality bug recently bit you... :happy:

Also, that video example was most likely non-LOG and sharpened. There are more pleasant examples.

And not to drag this out, but the main point wasn't just about Panasonic and what they can or cannot do - or would or would not do - but about other cameras as well with more resolution and bigger sensors.
 
Here's the $600 Lumix 85mm f/1.8:

ast-1142630.jpg

It still wins. And they have the "S Pro" line which is different from just the S line. This is just S. But I think it's worth comparing the best lenses you can get in one format versus the other.
 
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