EVA1: Panasonic AU-EVA1! Announcement and latest updates
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Zak Forsman
Major Contributor
Canon generally has an identifiable look inherent in their image with a focus on making skintones as attractive as can be. A lot of people gravitate to their line-up for this reason.
I want to learn from these sorts of statements. I want to see what you see. Can you quantify that a bit more. You find the noise levels at any given ISO setting to be too much; can you make a comparison to some other camera as a reference?
'Not pretty looking' - can you quantify or compare the noise with some other noise you find more palatable? I'm no DP, but the noise looks a lot like film grain to me up to ISO 12600 in that candle/face shot. After that it falls apart and has that video noise look.
NorBro
Major Contributor
I think Matthew Allard provides some of the best camera reviews out there and I love his thorough write-ups...but these images are extremely mediocre.
And I thought the same thing about a lot of C200 footage so I am not hating.
I've also seen C200 footage that looks really nice and I'm assuming the EVA1 is capable of those "Hollywood-like" motion pictures as well...but these are simply lifeless.
Am I insane? Just tell me.
I've been recently thinking about getting a BMCC (again) before they are completely discontinued as brand new (any day now) and when I watch some of the footage from 2013, it's still amazing to me.
And this is a 1080p video from a $800 camera on eBay: https://vimeo.com/55887965 (If you choose to watch it, see the entire thing!)
And I thought the same thing about a lot of C200 footage so I am not hating.
I've also seen C200 footage that looks really nice and I'm assuming the EVA1 is capable of those "Hollywood-like" motion pictures as well...but these are simply lifeless.
Am I insane? Just tell me.
I've been recently thinking about getting a BMCC (again) before they are completely discontinued as brand new (any day now) and when I watch some of the footage from 2013, it's still amazing to me.
And this is a 1080p video from a $800 camera on eBay: https://vimeo.com/55887965 (If you choose to watch it, see the entire thing!)
Zak Forsman
Major Contributor
I think you're a *little* crazy.
I own a BMCC 2.5K and absolutely love the unweildy little bastard. Own the Micro Cinema Camera too and won't be selling either of them after taking possession of my EVA1. I've stuck with 2K/1080p for a long time precisely because these sensors are so fantastic under the right light. But they do have their own share of image issues. For me, the top problem i've had is how they perform under tungsten light. Skintones, everything that looks so stellar in daylight, suffer somewhat under tungsten. To some degree an IR Cut filter helps but there is a deficiency that can be tough to counter in post. For me, anyway.
You can see it in this comparison between a tungsten lamp with a higher CRI than the daylight balanced CFL light source.
https://vimeo.com/90240769
Shooting with the Micro as a low-profile run-and-gun camera has been a lot of fun for me too...
And one of the new found joys I've had is shooting with the BMCC 2.5k, using the Metabones BMPCC .58x Speed booster, resulting in a 1.33x crop.
As for the EVA1, if the Varicam can compare favorably to an Arri, and the EVA1 is nearly identical to the Varicam's image, why shouldn't it excel in capable hands?
Zak Forsman
Major Contributor
The Odyssey 7Q+ captures RAW from the Varicam LT as Cinema DNGs, so I expect it will be the same. I don't own any Atomos recorders so can't speak to how they might handle it.
bill totolo
Veteran
Tried linking to Flickr but they don't provide a cut n paste code that's easy to link. If you have a specific question relating to an artifact you see I'm happy to investigate the original file.
Flickr link (TIFF):
https://www.flickr.com/photos/billtotolo/38106761591/in/dateposted-public/
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filmguy123
Veteran
Few quick thoughts and notes from the newsshooter footage:
Final firmware. Base ISO 2500 is definitely not 800 equivalent. It does look better than the first batch of footage. It still just looks like what I'd expect from the camera with 1 native ISO, set @ 2500. Maybe a hair better. The whole marketing pitch of two Base ISO's is that they are virtually identical and this to me feels like a marketting gimmick. I am not doubting the intent or engineering differences, only saying the results don't mirror how close dual base ISO on the LT is.
I think the DR and highlight roll off looks pretty good.
The images are very detailed and resolve nicely. The colors are good.
The EIS test from ProAV dissapointed. I felt like even on the handheld stationary test you could see EIS artifacts. Or was that just compression artificats? Anyone else see this or have an opinion? It's really hard to tell though. The clips happen so fast. I would have preferred multiple shots at 15 seconds each.
Newshooter appears to have botched the 2.2k 240fps test. It was shot at 800/2500. Should be 400/1250 for native per my understanding. However it is also revealing of one crucial tidbit: I wouldn't touch non-native ISO in 240fps. Well, maybe 800, it's workable. But 2500 no way. So 400, maybe 800. 1250, no way to 2500.
Still haven't seen any 120fps footage really tested out much which is far more interesting since the crop is less, native ISO is maintained, and 10-bit 4:2:2 is possible. To me 240fps is a nice to have backup, but I wish we'd see the more practical 120fps tests already.
No audio pre-amp tests yet... would like to hear some side by sides to GH5 audio unit and SoundDevices recorder.
The 2x Newshooter videos (Japanese dyeing, around town). Hmmm... some of the most helpful footage released thus far for sure. Exactly what many were asking for: indoor, a little lower light, mixed lighting, run'n'gun style. Despite all the cries of how it would make the camera look like crap. Definitely a helpful piece with a lot of helpful shots. I thought it was pretty good.
That said, one thing the camera for me so far that is lacking in any footage released at all is that "something special". Just doesn't have that special mojo in what I've seen so far in some competitors. This seems to be where the thread has headed the last few posts.
I agree with Paul. If anyone can articulate what may be causing this in a little more depth, that would be helpful.
As well I really look forward to seeing more footage now that the camera is shipping. The only camera I want on market right now is the EVA-1 due to a number of factors, I just wish I felt the spark with the images I am seeing so far.
Final firmware. Base ISO 2500 is definitely not 800 equivalent. It does look better than the first batch of footage. It still just looks like what I'd expect from the camera with 1 native ISO, set @ 2500. Maybe a hair better. The whole marketing pitch of two Base ISO's is that they are virtually identical and this to me feels like a marketting gimmick. I am not doubting the intent or engineering differences, only saying the results don't mirror how close dual base ISO on the LT is.
I think the DR and highlight roll off looks pretty good.
The images are very detailed and resolve nicely. The colors are good.
The EIS test from ProAV dissapointed. I felt like even on the handheld stationary test you could see EIS artifacts. Or was that just compression artificats? Anyone else see this or have an opinion? It's really hard to tell though. The clips happen so fast. I would have preferred multiple shots at 15 seconds each.
Newshooter appears to have botched the 2.2k 240fps test. It was shot at 800/2500. Should be 400/1250 for native per my understanding. However it is also revealing of one crucial tidbit: I wouldn't touch non-native ISO in 240fps. Well, maybe 800, it's workable. But 2500 no way. So 400, maybe 800. 1250, no way to 2500.
Still haven't seen any 120fps footage really tested out much which is far more interesting since the crop is less, native ISO is maintained, and 10-bit 4:2:2 is possible. To me 240fps is a nice to have backup, but I wish we'd see the more practical 120fps tests already.
No audio pre-amp tests yet... would like to hear some side by sides to GH5 audio unit and SoundDevices recorder.
The 2x Newshooter videos (Japanese dyeing, around town). Hmmm... some of the most helpful footage released thus far for sure. Exactly what many were asking for: indoor, a little lower light, mixed lighting, run'n'gun style. Despite all the cries of how it would make the camera look like crap. Definitely a helpful piece with a lot of helpful shots. I thought it was pretty good.
That said, one thing the camera for me so far that is lacking in any footage released at all is that "something special". Just doesn't have that special mojo in what I've seen so far in some competitors. This seems to be where the thread has headed the last few posts.
I agree with Paul. If anyone can articulate what may be causing this in a little more depth, that would be helpful.
As well I really look forward to seeing more footage now that the camera is shipping. The only camera I want on market right now is the EVA-1 due to a number of factors, I just wish I felt the spark with the images I am seeing so far.
Canon C200 doesn't look to good either with the compression artefacts from the internal recording but to me that constant noise in the Eva footage isn't pretty looking.
That's noise I don't see in FS7/FS5 footage at native ISO which is my reference as far as noise goes. But overall the image looks good in DR and colours to me.
It's just that these days there's stiff competition and so far no footage from Eva1 has got my attention or made me say wow.
icarusfilm
Veteran
I think that camera manufacturers are under the gun from consumers who want one camera to do it all: 4-8k, 240fps or more, high ISO, 14+ stops dynamic range and out of the box rec 709 colors all for under 10k.
Maybe there is a market for a more focused camera: 4k, max 100fps, 15 Stops, log only, 500 ISO base but with focus on color and image for under 10k.
Maybe there is a market for a more focused camera: 4k, max 100fps, 15 Stops, log only, 500 ISO base but with focus on color and image for under 10k.
NorBro
Major Contributor
The problem is that specs are starting not to mean anything anymore.
Like we can all throw a bunch of numbers and fancy words together, but if the camera doesn't deliver it simply doesn't deliver. I wouldn't want an 8K, 14-stop camera that looked like the C200 images on the last page. I'd rather take the 2K, 13-stop one.
At this point, I don't care about specs...just make me a camera that shoots beautiful cinematic images. Maybe work on the motion rendering or something.
And a lot may argue you can produce any look you'd like in post, but I don't agree.
When I use Blackmagic or the RED Raven, it's effortless. Especially with the RED, which looks like a blockbuster with just a few touches in the RAW tab. It's unreal how easy it is, but I guess that's why you pay a premium.
Like we can all throw a bunch of numbers and fancy words together, but if the camera doesn't deliver it simply doesn't deliver. I wouldn't want an 8K, 14-stop camera that looked like the C200 images on the last page. I'd rather take the 2K, 13-stop one.
At this point, I don't care about specs...just make me a camera that shoots beautiful cinematic images. Maybe work on the motion rendering or something.
And a lot may argue you can produce any look you'd like in post, but I don't agree.
When I use Blackmagic or the RED Raven, it's effortless. Especially with the RED, which looks like a blockbuster with just a few touches in the RAW tab. It's unreal how easy it is, but I guess that's why you pay a premium.
I was very impressed with the eva-1 files. Noise looks good and well resolved, smoother noise roll off than fs7 and much less artifacts. It also looks like proper 4k could not notice that I was looking at a 1:1 crop at first. The fs7 looks terrible with a 1:1 crop. I could use all (almost) 14 stops on this camera I think. The thing with dual iso is that you get 14 stops at both which is very handy. Im intrigued and want to test for myself
icarusfilm
Veteran
Maybe just get a used canon c500 with a recorder : HD & 2K in 4:2:2 up to 120p, or 4:4:4 up to 60p, and uncompressed 4K Raw data up to 60p and.
ntouched
Well-known member
Quotes from Newshooter "Performing a white balance can be confusing, the onboard LCD screen is horrible to use as a monitor, and the autofocus is disappointing." Those were direct quotes from Newshooter. They also mentioned the build was a bit plastic and a few other things. Reviewer did say the images were good. Hmmmmm, would still like to get my hands on one to test..........
filmguy123
Veteran
Agreed! I don't know what it is but this is my concern. I really love the EVA-1 specs. There are some things I don't think it lives up to specs/promise wise... but that's not the biggest deal or problem...
My thought going in is "Panasonic images always deliver." Right now I'm sitting on the fence unsure if I want to order. I had expected to be stoked on the image and easily justifying any over-promised spec shortcomings as "whatever, all good, because the image speaks for itself."
Except right now, I'm in the exact opposite camp, trying to justify an image I'm not in love with because of the specs/practicality. Plus with the additional caveat of the noise and dual ISO being pretty underwhelming. It's one of those things that works but is a stretch to pitch as a distinguishing feature. The FS7 native baso ISO is literally 2000 ISO. Plus you can use speedboosters via e-mount. Whatever, I personally don't want an FS7 for other reasons, I'm just saying that the EVA-1 doesn't really best the competition here, it basically just performs in the same ballpark.
If you really want a 5.7k sensor resolving extra detail over the FS7 that is beneficial to not lose much or anything in sensitivity for the extra res. But I'm not sure if I like that trade-off so far in what I am seeing, as it translates to the final aesthetic...
NorBro
Major Contributor
One thing I never understood with the dual ISO is why people are so pumped about it?
It's like have you ever used an a7SII? lol ...even the 5D Mark IV and 1DX Mark II shoot high-quality video into the thousands.
And it's pretty much what you're saying about the FS7. So with the EVA1, it's like you have your 2500 but then in practice you should drop it a bit...so then you're probably down around 2000 and below, and pretty much most cameras on the market are able to provide decent quality with limited noise around there so what is the point? Because you don't lose any visible dynamic range going from a native of 800 to 1600.
So it's just a silly "feature" IMO unless we're talking about crystal clean images at 10,000.
Again, it seems like I've been hating a lot lately but I'll also be the first to say, "Wow, this looks amazing." about EVA1 footage when I see it.
Run&Gun
Veteran
So far, the VariCam LT is the easiest to WB s35 cine camera that I've used. The F55 and C300 are ridiculously over complicated compared to say a 1st or 2nd generation VariCam, F900 or any other ENG camera.
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