filmguy123
Veteran
Yeah, mine was sarcasm... and here I thought the "/s" tag to be overly redundant, but I guess not :2vrolijk_08:
EVA1: Panasonic AU-EVA1! Announcement and latest updates
- Thread starter soarprod
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Yeah, mine was sarcasm... and here I thought the "/s" tag to be overly redundant, but I guess not :2vrolijk_08:
stoneinapond
Veteran
Run&Gun
Veteran
My bad. Sometimes the combination of being up early, shooting handheld all day and not having dinner yet takes a toll.
Mitch Gross
Veteran
Either the video was not shot with an EVA1 and it's a falsehood or it was shot with an EVA1 but done in some sort of secretive way that was rather unprofessional. If the first is true then Panasonic wants to protect the brand. If the second is true (and frankly the thing was so haphazard that I guess it would mean they were just supposed to hold it to get a look but secretly shoved in an SD card and popped off a few seconds of video?? Crazy!) then they were also doing something wrong. And either way, Panasonic has decided that it doesn't want any supervised release of material at this time.
BTW, I don't know. I didn't have anything to do with it being taken down. Or put up. Or anything in between.
Mitch Gross
Veteran
The point is that if Panasonic doesn't stop one video, real or not, then it's not particularly fair to stop another. Take those two British reviews that basically said, "We thought it looked great but Panasonic said we couldn't show the footage." Would it be right to let them show material but if someone else shot footage the company didn't like then they would be barred? The simple answer is not footage out until the camera is performing as best it can. That way, if someone publishes a video that looks awful another video could show that it wasn't the camera's fault but instead the user. And then once the camera's on the market you can all prove it for yourselves. Of course there will be tons of crappy footage from poor shooters, but there will be plenty of people who understand how to competently use their tools. It will be easy to determine what the camera can and can't do then.
Mitch Gross
Veteran
It's not that the cameras are bad, it's that they're not at their best. I can make a meal that tastes quite good and is wholly satisfying, but change the cook time, add a pinch of pepper and suddenly it can become delicious. The engineers want to tweak the cameras to get them at their best. Weird little things crop up as they do on any project. Things we're never going to tell you about because we're gonna fix them before you ever knew they existed. When the camera gets out there it'll look great and everyone can go nuts shooting whatever tests they like. For right now we're tweaking the recipe still.
Mitch Gross
Veteran
Um, what?
Mitch Gross
Veteran
You mean like white balance, ISO, frame rate? Seriously?
Mitch Gross
Veteran
At least you see the humor.
Over the years I've heard DPs complain about the camera's and other tools becoming too complicated. Of course not knowing what your tools can do means that you don't realize how they can be helpful to you. All those menu items are there to help you do something. If you don't want to that's fine, but it's foolish to stick your head in the sand while the world (and your competition) passes you by. Just think about what you can do in a color correct session, compared to the old days of printing film where one basically told the timer "brighter, darker, redder, greener, etc."
Yes, there's certainly a standard mode in which the EVA1 can deliver lovely images, and it will be great for all of the non-cinematographers who will use the camera in corporate settings, Houses of Worship, spot news, and other areas where fine-tuning the image is not the major concern of the person operating the device. But for people who dedicate their careers to making images to not want to know how their tool can help them achieve their vision always saddens and astounds me. I guess I think a little differently about it.
Kinda matches this mentality.
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Mitch Gross
Veteran
First units ship worldwide end of October.
I don't consider exposure and white balance to be image settings but all the nonsense picture profiles and settings.
In that case, wouldn't it have been much better, wiser and serve these goals better if the camera had only been announced once it was 100% finished and footage only released then? You can't have your cake and eat it too.
I don't think this is what he meant. To me it's pretty clear what he meant actually. Either a camera is easy to get good results with or it's hard or nearly impossible. If you have to tweak it to oblivion just to get a good result then I don't want such a camera. This is exactly why Arris are the most popular cameras in the industry. You don't have to mess around with it to make it shine.
I have no idea how you got that he was talking about ISO, frame rate and WB when it was obvious he was talking about deep menu stuff.
filmguy123
Veteran
I agree that if a manufacturer is too lazy to make a default picture profile that looks good, its really annoying to have to tweak the snot out of a camera to get it looking decent.
But I think Panasonic has generally done a great job of that on the DVX/HVX cameras, AF100, GH series, etc. "Best" is so subjective especially in an artistic field. If anything I wish some of my cameras had MORE image control (I'd love to a GHx menu setting to disable the electronic sharpening on native M43 lenses, for example). There's plenty of threads about NR -5 vs NR 0, Sharp -3, etc. etc. Frankly in good hands, they all look great, but different strokes for different folks.
Mitch said more detail is like complaining a steak is too delicious. Other DPs would say too much detail is like overcooking a steak. Who is right? Really, neither... all a default camera setting can do is dial it into what the manufacturer thought looked best. I love that I can disagree (at least to a certain extent) and hone in a look that suits my tastes, or perhaps suits a certain scenario (landscape VS portrait; indoor tungsten lowlight VS outdoor harsh sunlight, etc.).
But I think Panasonic has generally done a great job of that on the DVX/HVX cameras, AF100, GH series, etc. "Best" is so subjective especially in an artistic field. If anything I wish some of my cameras had MORE image control (I'd love to a GHx menu setting to disable the electronic sharpening on native M43 lenses, for example). There's plenty of threads about NR -5 vs NR 0, Sharp -3, etc. etc. Frankly in good hands, they all look great, but different strokes for different folks.
Mitch said more detail is like complaining a steak is too delicious. Other DPs would say too much detail is like overcooking a steak. Who is right? Really, neither... all a default camera setting can do is dial it into what the manufacturer thought looked best. I love that I can disagree (at least to a certain extent) and hone in a look that suits my tastes, or perhaps suits a certain scenario (landscape VS portrait; indoor tungsten lowlight VS outdoor harsh sunlight, etc.).
Please see my reply above for my clarification on the very easy to understand concept.
I'm sorry Mitch. But I will have to put you on blast for this one. Because this misses the mark in a way that I think DP Mitch never would. I would say it's a good idea for Rep Mitch to consult DP Mitch before posting. :thumbsup:
I know this will be one of those replies which will get down voted to oblivion and I don't care. I know there are so many with thin skins. But ...
By the way, I don't think all the snide with all the "Um, what?", "Seriously?" etc is doing someone in your position any good. But please allow me to play by those same rules here.
Seriously? Are you going to put down the DPs instead of giving the buyer what they want? Tell your customer how they should want their meal instead of giving them what they want. Business success 101. Again, no wonder Arri is killing everybody on the market. They don't argue that the client is wrong in wanting something. They just give it to them and in return clients pay good money for it.
I don't see how wanting an easy to use camera is sticking your head in the sand. But ok. I will bite. Foolish how? For which side? For the company? Arri is selling loads of cameras and they are all high priced. Their cameras are THE industry standard. Hard to call them a fool. Foolish for the buyer? No Arri user complains the cameras are too easy to use. So I don't see your point. And I'm not taking you out of context. I'm addressing your point head on.
You still can do that with a camera that is easy to use. I know you can do all that very well with the Alexas and Amira. Yet you don't have to mess with camera menus to get there. I will repeat what J.Brown said, I also don't think I ever had to mess around with the Alexa to make it shine.
Again you miss the mark so horribly. There is nothing to do with that. There is nothing to do with not wanting to know how their tool can help them achieve their vision. It has to do with not fighting their tool to get their vision. The tool not getting on the way of getting their vision. The tool making it actually easier to get their vision, so they can be freed to worry about more important things like lighting etc. Instead of spending most of their time in the video tent trying to tweak the image.
Um, what? Ridiculing buyers for not wanting to have extra work with something?
I know this will be one of those replies which will get down voted to oblivion and I don't care. I know there are so many with thin skins. But ...
By the way, I don't think all the snide with all the "Um, what?", "Seriously?" etc is doing someone in your position any good. But please allow me to play by those same rules here.
Seriously? Are you going to put down the DPs instead of giving the buyer what they want? Tell your customer how they should want their meal instead of giving them what they want. Business success 101. Again, no wonder Arri is killing everybody on the market. They don't argue that the client is wrong in wanting something. They just give it to them and in return clients pay good money for it.
I don't see how wanting an easy to use camera is sticking your head in the sand. But ok. I will bite. Foolish how? For which side? For the company? Arri is selling loads of cameras and they are all high priced. Their cameras are THE industry standard. Hard to call them a fool. Foolish for the buyer? No Arri user complains the cameras are too easy to use. So I don't see your point. And I'm not taking you out of context. I'm addressing your point head on.
You still can do that with a camera that is easy to use. I know you can do all that very well with the Alexas and Amira. Yet you don't have to mess with camera menus to get there. I will repeat what J.Brown said, I also don't think I ever had to mess around with the Alexa to make it shine.
Again you miss the mark so horribly. There is nothing to do with that. There is nothing to do with not wanting to know how their tool can help them achieve their vision. It has to do with not fighting their tool to get their vision. The tool not getting on the way of getting their vision. The tool making it actually easier to get their vision, so they can be freed to worry about more important things like lighting etc. Instead of spending most of their time in the video tent trying to tweak the image.
Um, what? Ridiculing buyers for not wanting to have extra work with something?
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I don't think anybody is talking look, as in grade or image style. It can be just a neutral look. It can still be either a crappy neutral look or a great neutral look. The point is the base image. If a camera is easy to use and is a great camera, the base image will look great and be easy to get. Anything past that is gravy. If a camera needs lots of tweaking and messing just to get a great looking base image you can forget about gravy. No gravy for you!:grin:
Alpha Beta Omega
Veteran
I like an easy camera to handle that gives me lovely images without me trying to squeeze the juice out of it. A camera should, just like all other hardware, just get out of the way and let me compose and move my camera.
morgan_moore
Major Contributor
If you have used a lot of cams.. the good ones are good pretty much out of the box IMO. Ive had donkeys and others, the donkeys you spend infinite time painting, getting magenta shadows.. whatever. Im not saying the EVA is like this, but to suggest that a camera should only sing after a setup battle is just not correct.
Jason R. Johnston
Well-known member
Wow; the lack of humility on display here.
EVA1 doesn’t look like a particularly difficult tool to learn. I’m sure that it’ll make some very nice images straight out of the box, but to make it your own, you need to dive into the menus. And yes, controlling the settings of your camera system is paramount to controlling your image (which is your job as DP), and that includes the ISO, aperture, and shutter speed, trinity. To go further, focal length is just as important as knee, gamut is just as important as composition, using the appropriate base LUT is just as important as choosing handheld over steadicam. They ALL are parts of the puzzle that the DP must be concerned with. That also includes the ability to work with people as a DP, a collaborator, a filmmaker, an artist, as a scientist, a leader, an employed...it’s all important.
You have to learn your tool.
I know plenty enough “filmmakers” who got their hands on an Alexa or Epic, with Ultra Primes, CP.2 ‘s, Panchros...and the footage looks like it was shot on an iPhone by a plebien. Then you can have an incredibly skilled and talented filmmaker shoot on an iPhone and it might as well have been shot on Alexa. As a photographer I had seen this before for years before DSLRs that shot video suddenly became a thing (now frakking EVERYONE is a cinematographer) where some rich dude would buy the most expensive Canon 1D system around, and lament how the camera didn’t make him a better photographer automatically. I know why. Because he wasn’t a damn photographer and didn’t know the rule of thirds from sunny 16.
EVA1 is just a tool. It’ll be used by idiots to shoot crap images, and it’ll be used by ASC cinematographers to shoot some lovely images (or deliberately ugly images to suit the story, whatever). But, it’s just a tool. I’m pretty sure it’ll do fine straight out of the box. But, this is an owner/operator camera. It’s intended to be bought, loved, used, customized, knocked around, wet-rented out, and deliver a compelling image underneath Varicam LT and without LT’s options. It’s designed to be frankenrigged or used naked on a gimbal. It’s designed to be easily used straight from the box, or completely customized to the point where it only makes sense to the owner. Being snotty to Mitch isn’t going to make the EVA1 grow an Easy Button.
If you think you can just point and shoot with an Alexa and the image will be dandy...uh, I don’t know what to tell you. I’m pretty sure Sir Roger Deakins dives into the menus on his Alexas to squeeze as much juice from them as possible. I’m pretty sure he doesn’t just turn the camera on and start shooting without regarding lens choice, camera settings, lighting, composition, etc. And I’m sure he doesn’t use auto focus.
EVA1 doesn’t look like a particularly difficult tool to learn. I’m sure that it’ll make some very nice images straight out of the box, but to make it your own, you need to dive into the menus. And yes, controlling the settings of your camera system is paramount to controlling your image (which is your job as DP), and that includes the ISO, aperture, and shutter speed, trinity. To go further, focal length is just as important as knee, gamut is just as important as composition, using the appropriate base LUT is just as important as choosing handheld over steadicam. They ALL are parts of the puzzle that the DP must be concerned with. That also includes the ability to work with people as a DP, a collaborator, a filmmaker, an artist, as a scientist, a leader, an employed...it’s all important.
You have to learn your tool.
I know plenty enough “filmmakers” who got their hands on an Alexa or Epic, with Ultra Primes, CP.2 ‘s, Panchros...and the footage looks like it was shot on an iPhone by a plebien. Then you can have an incredibly skilled and talented filmmaker shoot on an iPhone and it might as well have been shot on Alexa. As a photographer I had seen this before for years before DSLRs that shot video suddenly became a thing (now frakking EVERYONE is a cinematographer) where some rich dude would buy the most expensive Canon 1D system around, and lament how the camera didn’t make him a better photographer automatically. I know why. Because he wasn’t a damn photographer and didn’t know the rule of thirds from sunny 16.
EVA1 is just a tool. It’ll be used by idiots to shoot crap images, and it’ll be used by ASC cinematographers to shoot some lovely images (or deliberately ugly images to suit the story, whatever). But, it’s just a tool. I’m pretty sure it’ll do fine straight out of the box. But, this is an owner/operator camera. It’s intended to be bought, loved, used, customized, knocked around, wet-rented out, and deliver a compelling image underneath Varicam LT and without LT’s options. It’s designed to be frankenrigged or used naked on a gimbal. It’s designed to be easily used straight from the box, or completely customized to the point where it only makes sense to the owner. Being snotty to Mitch isn’t going to make the EVA1 grow an Easy Button.
If you think you can just point and shoot with an Alexa and the image will be dandy...uh, I don’t know what to tell you. I’m pretty sure Sir Roger Deakins dives into the menus on his Alexas to squeeze as much juice from them as possible. I’m pretty sure he doesn’t just turn the camera on and start shooting without regarding lens choice, camera settings, lighting, composition, etc. And I’m sure he doesn’t use auto focus.
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