Panasonic 4K S35 Varicam: More info

Erik Naso said:
I saw this today on Vimeo and it makes total sense. Panasonic wants to have 4K products for broadcast not cinema.
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I disagree, I'm sorry, but the whole interview has "put a brave PR face" stamped all over it.

Points such as about current low 4k broadcast penetration are true, but totally irrelevant to what's she's saying.

Much top end broadcast is now being SHOT 4k, even if first transmission will be HD. Reason is to increase future value and retransmission value, and for such work the biggest costs are in wages, transportation, etc etc. Being 4k or HD doesn't affect the costs by too big a percentage - it's exactly the same reason why many top end productions got SHOT in HD about 10 years ago, well before there was any significant HD transmission. Why there were a fair number of HD cameras at the top end well before any significant HD broadcasting.

I also can't believe the point about not having a 4k camera on the market now because many other manufacturers have. That's like a post-WW2 aircraft manufacturer saying they haven't developed a jet aircraft, because that's what the other manufacturers are selling!!

And again, mixed messages. One moment talk of "prioritising development", next that 4k really only belongs in the future.

I think Panasonic have made a good first step with the announcement of the 4k s35 Varicam. They're at least getting back on the right track. But it would help to regain trust by simply saying "we got it wrong, we're trying to put it right".



[EDIT - Having just watched it again, her comments about codecs seem very confused, if not completely incorrect in places concerning datarates. Maybe it's reading too much into it, but the impression is that the new Varicam will only output coded video as AVC-Ultra - not RAW. It's true that (as is the case with XAVC) that may be a workflow advantage in some cases - but RAW may be advantageous at other times.

Surely the best option is to have the choice? RAW or XAVC/AVC-Ultra - like the F55?

If the 4k Varicam won't have any RAW option, surely that puts it at a big disadvantage to the F55 in that respect?]
 
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Very good video. You get the sense that that won't be the final design. It makes sense that they will continue to support broadcast. The ENG world is OK with the s35 sensor and lenses? Sounds like a better camera for narrative TV. With 4K, why not cinema?
 
Erik Naso said:
My takeaway was that they aren't into cinema or narrative but ENG. With that in mind it makes sense to me.
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A distinct change in emphasis since the same mockup was first shown at NAB 2012 nearly a year and a half ago. At that time, when queried about the sensor size, a Panasonic spokesman didn't say MFT or S35, but characterized it as a "cinema-size sensor."
 
Maybe panasonic will develop systems for image stabilization and auto focus that broadcast guys want on an s35 camera. The video talked about workflow so it still sounds like it is meant for ENG or live sports or something where you want a quick turnaround. Still, S35 and improved color science couldn't hurt to use it for cinema maybe a little ;) No talk of raw??
 
Erik Naso said:
My takeaway was that they aren't into cinema or narrative but ENG. With that in mind it makes sense to me.
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Super 35 4K for ENG and not narrative or cinema? Sure, but ENG kind of depends on 20x zoom lenses that are NOT primes.
I wonder if they have anything up their sleeves in that area? I think we have been seeing a lot of interesting developments
in lenses.....the Sigma 1.8 zoom (I hadn't ever seen a 1.8 zoom before!), the Cabrio 19-90 lens that can be used ENG style on
big sensor cams, the zooms for the Sony F3 and Sony FS700.....I could see Panasonic partnering with someone to have some
sort of ENG lens for this camera. Competition is good, bring it on Panasonic!!!
 
Why does "Broadcast" necessarily mean "ENG"? My bet is this will be aimed more at local commercial production and "60 Minutes" style stuff. The news department won't buy this as a general purpose camera, but I can see the promotions department buying it. Along with small shops. My old station had just started shooting some local commercial spots on an AF100 when I left, but we were heavily invested in the P2 workflow in news, so I can see this camera fitting in and replacing the AF100 in that scenario.
 
It would be horrible to lash out and buy the Cabrio lens for $38K, then at NAB newer longer zoom-range (and cheaper) S35 ENG-style lenses came out.
 
"Too little too late", "that ship has already sailed" ....... Are you people serious?

While you may sit there at your computer getting sucked into all the hype about 4K, the fact is that very few (if any) broadcasters/OB facilities/ Studios have invested in 4K technology. They don't just throw out all the kit they have invested in at the drop of a hat and plunge cheque book first into a hyped about product still in its infancy. Even if Panasonic don't release this for 12 months it won't be too late.
 
vtwiz said:
....... Are you people serious?

......... the fact is that very few (if any) broadcasters/OB facilities/ Studios have invested in 4K technology. They don't just throw out all the kit they have invested in at the drop of a hat and plunge cheque book first into a hyped about product still in its infancy.
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From what I hear there has been very significant investment within the last 12 months in 4k capable kit by the sort of people you talk about. It may be being used in an HD mode at the moment, but if you're in the top end of the market, (what I called "the Varicam market") then if you're investing in new kit now, common sense says it should be 4k capable.

I'm basing that on not just anecdotal evidence from people I know, but maybe the best reference I can give is a survey of the main UK rental companies that's been quoted before - http://www.televisual.com/news-detail/Top-10-Rental-Cameras--The-Full-Report_nid-2525.html

The actual top ten is interesting, but obviously reflects the recent past - not the future.

So take a look at the paragraph just before the no 1 camera, and the section after the no 10 camera (marked "Planned camera investments for 2013"). Far and away the camera(s) of most note there are the Sony F5/55, and from what I hear many of those companies have already taken delivery of what were "planned investments" when the survey was taken early in 2013. (eg http://vmi.tv/equipment/1/camera-hire/941/sony-pmw-f55-hire-london-xdcam-ex-2k4k )

Nothing lasts for ever, but when a camera becomes established as de facto norm in rental fleets, it will only get displaced when something else comes along that is either BETTER, CHEAPER or both. You won't get far if you can only equal the market leader. That's what I meant when I said Panasonic had a market dominant position with the Varicam, but have now lost it. And it's much more difficult to win such back than just retain it in the first place.
 
vtwiz said:
"Too little too late", "that ship has already sailed" ....... Are you people serious?

While you may sit there at your computer getting sucked into all the hype about 4K, the fact is that very few (if any) broadcasters/OB facilities/ Studios have invested in 4K technology. They don't just throw out all the kit they have invested in at the drop of a hat and plunge cheque book first into a hyped about product still in its infancy. Even if Panasonic don't release this for 12 months it won't be too late.
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+1 and where I work at the moment on premier league and major sports events we are just getting rid of all that 3D hardware never mind even talking about 4k or anything other than 1080i 50i
 
The Sony F55 and F5 are not broadcast cameras. They are EFP cameras. You would not use them in a multi camera TV studio, Outside broadcast or ENG set up.

If a broadcast studio or OB facility needs to replace a camera, they replace it with one of the same brand and chip size for image and colour matching with their existing cameras. As well as working in documentaries, I work in a lot of Studios and OB facilities throughout the world on many of the major events. 4K has popped up on a few jobs in the form of a camera feeding a 4K image to an EVS that can then zoom in pan scan style to a 1080p crop. This can be useful in sports replays so that the cameraman can stay on a wide shot so not missing any area of play and then the replay operator can zoom in to the portion of the image that contained the incident to be replayed. It's still very much in its infancy though.

4K wise, there is an aim to have the next Olympics broadcast in 4K but that is three yeas off though. Other than that, I have not seen any 4K cameras used widely in broadcast. They have popped up in demo form on a few occasions but that's it.

Remember, 4K is just a resolution. Sony introduced the HVR-Z1 in 2004/05. This was a relatively small, affordable HD camera (albeit not a great one) that was used wideley. Does that mean than every manufacturer that released an HD camera in the years after that missed the boat? New HD cameras are still being produced today nearly 8years after the Z1. Surely that boat has sailed???

4K means just that. It does not specify a workflow, an integration into facilities, a codec etc. These are all things very important to broadcasters investing in not just cameras but RF systems, CCU's, vision switchers, replay devises, VTR's, edit suites, storage etc..........

A brand new TV studio or OB facility may thing about 4K capable equipment but they don't dont come along very often at all.
 
From what I hear there has been very significant investment within the last 12 months in 4k capable kit by the sort of people you talk about. It may be being used in an HD mode at the moment, but if you're in the top end of the market, (what I called "the Varicam market") then if you're investing in new kit now, common sense says it should be 4k capable.
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Tell me who is even making 4k broadcast gear currently? It's all cinema type for the most part.

Well, maybe the major broadcast networks are getting into 4k gear. Not what I've seen in the U.S. anyway. Remember too that all the 4K cameras you guys are talking about are not TV broadcast type cameras anyways, but rather cinema style.

Albeit I'm talking about a lowly non profit religious TV network (consisting of 15 stations nationwide) but here at this network where I freelance they just installed the newest Sony switcher and 7 brand new 2/3" HD cameras. The entire facility is being re-wired for HD as I type this. You think they are interested is throwing all this gear into a dumpster and going to 4k anytime soon? In 5 years? In 10? maybe in 10 but I doubt it even then. And this is the case with probably hundreds of broadcast TV stations in the US. Even alot of the affiliates of the major networks (particularly in smaller towns/markets) they will broadcast HD for years to come...because they JUST NOW STARTED.
 
I work for in local broadcast in San Diego, but not in news gathering. I shoot commercials and image promos. I don't use an ENG camera I use large sensor cameras. AF-100, F3, C300, C100. News doesn't use these cameras. They shoot with Panasonic 370 ENG cameras. It's the right tool for them.
If Panasonic wants to go after a full 4K broadcast workflow with compression that speeds up the editing and delivery then so be it. They have chosen a different path. I don't think they had defined that path until recently but it's a different investment for them and the other guys have a big head start in cinema cameras so why bother.
Moving to HD for a lot of local stations took forever. Including us. It's a huge financial undertaking. Basically everything has to be replaced, and now 4K? We are looking at a very long road for this to happen.
 
Erik Naso said:
Moving to HD for a lot of local stations took forever. Including us. It's a huge financial undertaking. Basically everything has to be replaced, and now 4K? We are looking at a very long road for this to happen.
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This.

When I left my old station, they were still shooting DVCPro25, even with HD P2 cameras. The investment into upgrading the Avid system was too much, and the upscaled DVCPro25 was "good enough" (and really, it did look pretty good). And this is a network affiliate in the #12 market.

Plus, a lot of stations simply aren't in a great place financially right now (the reason I refer to my old station as my "old station" and not my "current station"). Investing in a whole new 4k infrastructure after just getting everything up to HD simply doesn't make financial sense. I mean... plenty of people are happy watching upscaled standard definition DVD's on their 50" plasmas. What do they (the local broadcaster) gain by going to 4K? Like I said, this would be great for the type of work Erik does, especially for places that are already invested in a P2 workflow. But 4K in general? Not going to happen below network level anytime soon.
 
I saw the Varicam mockup at IBC and talked to the Panasonic guy standing next to it. From what I got from our brief conversation is that indeed it is finally getting more concrete by now. I asked about the sensor but of course he could not tell anything about it. But he did say it would be a new sensor. I asked whether this had something to do with the Fuji collaboration they started sensor-wise, but again he couldn't say anything more. The mockup, although not a design to get the heart pounding faster, did intrigue me. It looked like nothing else, it looked like Panasonic is choosing its own path with it. And if that means they end up with a design like the AF100, which looks rather weird on photos but makes a lot of sense once you work with it, I might just be in.

Should Panasonic be listening again like they did before, here is what I'd like to see besides what they already announced:
Huge dynamic range, combined with Panasonic colors.
Possibility for flat color profile as well.
ND filters built in.
Good price.
No startup time.
And a possibility to get to a RAW workflow would be great too.
Other than that, just make it Panasonic good and reliable as always.
 
They did 4k tests with NHK and the BBC at the London 2012 games but I doubt if very much will be broadcast 4K in Rio as it would involve all the worlds OB vans and the total OBS infrastructure being re-equiped to deal with it.

Yes you may get the odd 4K camera feed from the stadium or limited coverage of set events but to say that the aim is to broadcast the next Olympics in 4k is I suspect not strictly true.
 
GaryNattrass said:
They did 4k tests with NHK and the BBC at the London 2012 games but I doubt if very much will be broadcast 4K in Rio as it would involve all the worlds OB vans and the total OBS infrastructure being re-equiped to deal with it.
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I don't recall 4k tests at the 2012 Olympics? What I saw was 8k demo footage being shown to audiences at various venues including Broadcasting House, obviously very limited as there were only a few (3?) cameras available. But it was significant that because you could see the fine detail, cutting and close ups became less necessary.

For now, 4k seems to be getting the interest as it's seen to be viable sooner. There are significant trials planned for Rio in 2014 - http://www.fifa.com/confederationscup/news/newsid=2064478/index.html - for the World Cup. My understanding was that the intention is that for the 2016 Olympics then there will be far more significant 4k coverage, but no - nothing anywhere near 100%.

Intention seems to be to push the technology along, use it for big screen showings in various countries, and (very) limited broadcast to home. The expectation is that by 2016 there will be some 4k broadcasting, even if still a small minority. But all these words and debates have an uncanny echo of HD about 10 years ago...... :)
 
ripupthehwy said:
Tell me who is even making 4k broadcast gear currently? It's all cinema type for the most part.

Well, maybe the major broadcast networks are getting into 4k gear. Not what I've seen in the U.S. anyway. Remember too that all the 4K cameras you guys are talking about are not TV broadcast type cameras anyways, but rather cinema style.
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I think we're starting to talk cross purposes here, and maybe it's my fault for not picking it up sooner. The thread is about the newly announced 4k s35 Varicam, and all my references have been to what I've called the "Varicam market". That was never intended to mean such as general broadcast or OBs for now - the reference was intended for TV drama, high budget documentaries, and anything which may have big reuse value in the future. What you previously may have expected to find a Varicam used on.

So yes, I fully agree that the non profit religious TV network you work for is highly unlikely to drop everything and move to 4k overnight - but it's never likely to have been in the Varicam market in the first place, is it?

To try to clarify yet again, this thread is about a proposed new Varicam, that implies high budget work. If that is your field, that's when I simply do not see any future in reequipping with anything other than 4k compatible equipment at the moment. It doesn't necessarily mean it has to be used in such mode at the moment - just look at the XDCAM422 mode on the Sony cameras additional to XAVC, for example. Likewise, I'm *NOT* suggesting everybody MUST upgrade or reequip now - just that if you are, 4k capability makes a lot of sense.
 
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