Panasonic 4K GH4 possibly coming next Spring...

[TheDingo]

I think if Panasonic wants folks to jump ship (or come back) they need to make a real C100/FS700 contender in APS-C, not another version of the DSLR with M4/3rds.

This would mean a whole new line of lenses and possibly a new lens mount, which seems very unlikely. I don't see Panasonic partnering with Canon or Nikon for a new camera line, and going with Leica lenses would probably price them out of the prosumer market. PL mount lenses would also be cost prohibitive, though you could rent anything your heart desired.

This is why I expect Panasonic to stick with the Micro 4/3 format for prosumer shooters, and introduce PL mount cameras for working pros who can afford it.

 

[Mike Harvey]

I guess I'm not sure what the benefit is of Panasonic doing APS-C. People with APS-C glass will still have to buy adapters for the new format, as Panasonic isn't going to use a Canon, Nikon, or Sony mount.

[EDIT] What TheDingo said

 

[Bassman2003]

I don't think they need to partner with Canon, nor do they have to make lenses for their cameras. Both Sony & Panasonic have always done this with their broadcast cameras. It is just a mount, not a partnership (unless I do not know enough about the hardware side).

I see Panasonic being kind of mixed up with consumer/prosumer/pro. You can't be all things at once. Yes, they can make m4/3rds lenses for their still cameras and the GH4 will fit right into that, but people who buy a C100 class of camera probably have a higher probability to own Canon or Nikon glass. Coming from my own point of view, I am ready to move beyond a DSLR for some video jobs to a C100 level of camera. I see using my Canon L lenses or buying Canon L lenses as a better investment than m4/3rds. I had Gh2's for a while with Oly 14-54 lenses and they were fine. But I am just pointing out that by sticking to a non-mainstream format, Panasonic is limiting their acceptance in the marketplace.

 

[Erik Naso]

Some good reasons for a 4K MFT camera like a AF-100 would be for documentary and run and gun.
Native MFT Lenses are so much smaller and lighter.
The sensor doesn't have as much of an issue with too much shallow depth of field making it easier to keep focus on faster moving subjects.
If an real fast f-stop ENG style zoom was produced in the MFT format the camera would be a huge hit for the doc, run and gun, and event crowd. However that lens would be pretty pricy but I think would sell cameras including the GH4 4K.

 

[roxics]

Would be cool if Panasonic brought out a DVX100 style body with a m43 mount, global shutter, 13 stop DR and a 10 bit 4:2:2 codec. Preferrably ProRes with the option for a more compressed format, XLR jacks with high s/n ratio, etc. Preferably some bigger faster lenses as well since they don't need to cater to the "small is everything" typical m43 photog that complains if the camera body gets as big as a rebel.

They can make some headway with the indie market and avoid the high end altogether where competition is stiff between ARRI, RED, Sony, Panavision, etc. I don't see why they have to play the "me too" game on the high end. I also don't see why they have to protect their dedicated ENG cameras used for television from a budget cinema style camera like this could be. If they can understand they are two different markets separated by different workflows and desires, they could innovate on each without worrying about stepping on the toes of each other.

 

[Mike Harvey]

I don't think they need to partner with Canon, nor do they have to make lenses for their cameras. Both Sony & Panasonic have always done this with their broadcast cameras. It is just a mount, not a partnership (unless I do not know enough about the hardware side).

The broadcast cameras all use an industry standard (like PL) B4 mount. There is no industry standard for photography like that. Canon uses it's own proprietary mount, as does Nikon and Sony (to force you to buy their lenses). MFT is actually probably the closest (as far as I know, but I'm probably wrong) to an industry standard in that multiple camera manufacturers use it. That's why if you buy Nikon Glass, you have to buy an adapter to use it on a Canon, and vice versa.

 

[Mike Harvey]

Would be cool if Panasonic brought out a DVX100 style body with a m43 mount, global shutter, 13 stop DR and a 10 bit 4:2:2 codec. Preferrably ProRes with the option for a more compressed format,

I doubt they would ever license ProRes from Apple when they have AVC-Intra/AVC-Ultra, which does all that and more and is an industry standard.

They can make some headway with the indie market and avoid the high end altogether where competition is stiff between ARRI, RED, Sony, Panavision, etc. I don't see why they have to play the "me too" game on the high end. I also don't see why they have to protect their dedicated ENG cameras used for television from a budget cinema style camera like this could be. If they can understand they are two different markets separated by different workflows and desires, they could innovate on each without worrying about stepping on the toes of each other.

I don't think it's a matter of trying to protect their 1/3" and 2/3" broadcast market from GH3/AF100 type cameras so much as the 1/3" and 2/3" cameras are their focus. They've stated that they wanted to focus on the "broadcast" market (however broadly or narrowly one defines it), which means to the exclusion to some degree of the cinema market. There are a lot of cameras and manufacturers in the low to middle-end cinema market... Red, Sony, Canon, Blackmagic and DSLR's are all players. Sony is really the only other big player at the moment in broadcast, and the US broadcast market is currently dominated by Panasonic. Even the new Varicam seems geared towards broadcast over cinema. Any AF100 replacement is going to need to fit into their broader plan for the broadcast market for it to make sense to them.

 

[Bassman2003]

Yes, I am well aware Canon and other companies use a proprietary mount. I guess I do not consider Panasonic to be a lens maker as much as a camera maker. What is the harm of offering other lens maker's mounts if it means you will sell more cameras in the long run?

M4/3rds might be "standardized" over many manufacturers, but I do not know if that classifies it as an industry standard. One would say that Canon L lenses are an industry standard in photography which also spills over into video use. M4/3rds is kind of an also-ran in the photography world. Not judging here, just the way it is.

 

[Bassman2003]

I don't think it's a matter of trying to protect their 1/3" and 2/3" broadcast market from GH3/AF100 type cameras so much as the 1/3" and 2/3" cameras are their focus. They've stated that they wanted to focus on the "broadcast" market (however broadly or narrowly one defines it), which means to the exclusion to some degree of the cinema market. There are a lot of cameras and manufacturers in the low to middle-end cinema market... Red, Sony, Canon, Blackmagic and DSLR's are all players. Sony is really the only other big player at the moment in broadcast, and the US broadcast market is currently dominated by Panasonic. Even the new Varicam seems geared towards broadcast over cinema. Any AF100 replacement is going to need to fit into their broader plan for the broadcast market for it to make sense to them.

Then lets think outside of the box and make a hybrid camera with a large sensor that can be windowed to 2/3" for use with broadcast lenses. Would seem to serve the broadcast market and give that market a SDOF option to boot. I would love to see this camera made. But it will probably not see any daylight.

 

[FrameFarmMedia]

Yes, I am well aware Canon and other companies use a proprietary mount. I guess I do not consider Panasonic to be a lens maker as much as a camera maker. What is the harm of offering other lens maker's mounts if it means you will sell more cameras in the long run?

M4/3rds might be "standardized" over many manufacturers, but I do not know if that classifies it as an industry standard. One would say that Canon L lenses are an industry standard in photography which also spills over into video use. M4/3rds is kind of an also-ran in the photography world. Not judging here, just the way it is.

The best part about M4/3 or E mount is using all the great glass that you can't use on Canon or Nikon mount cameras. If you don't use EF lenses Canon EF mount is a terrible choice as it is made to clear an archaic mirror box.

Shallow mounts are great because so many lens choices are just an adapter away. If I want S35 sensor look I put on a Speedbooster. If I need more depth of field I use a regular adapter. Its something I would never give up. The only mount that interests me other than M4/3 is Sony E mount for the same reasons. I can use loads of existing non M4/3 lenses. Nikon, M42, PL, FD, manual EF glass.

Old tech mounts based around DSLR with a mirror box is not the future especially from a company like Panasonic.

 

[TheDingo]

M4/3rds is kind of an also-ran in the photography world. Not judging here, just the way it is.

...But this is changing, especially with the awards and praise being heaped on the new Olympus OM-D EM-1 camera, which seems to be the first "pro" level Micro 4/3 camera on the market. I keep reading reviews where pro shooters are saying that they are being blown away by their hit-rate when shooting with the EM-1.

If more Micro 4/3 pro lenses like the new Panasonic 42.5mm f/1.2 OIS keep coming ( I expect they will ) and when the new Panasonic/Fuji wide DR sensor tech finally arrives, I can see more pro photo shooters adding the m4/3 format to their regular shooting gear.

 

[FrameFarmMedia]

Then lets think outside of the box and make a hybrid camera with a large sensor that can be windowed to 2/3" for use with broadcast lenses. Would seem to serve the broadcast market and give that market a SDOF option to boot. I would love to see this camera made. But it will probably not see any daylight.

The Sony F5/55 do this.

 

[Babu]

If Panasonic was to introduce a 4K AF100 with better DR, Lowlight, Resolution, and even 120fps I would sell my FS700 for it. M43 was really the sweet spot for me with needing to go shallow DOF or deep DOF. There when I needed it. 12 stops is definitely more then enough for my line of work. Will it happen? I'll take it a step at a time and look forward to the GH4K announcement and the S35 PL cam announcement. I shoot with Nikon glass so just need to change my adapter to utilize them.

 

[Zephyrnoid]

I just sent this message to Panasonic N. America's Product Development Lead.Tell me what you think?

Greetings Dan
Thanks for your time on our phone conversation recently on the subject of how [] can work with Panasonic product development on next gen hybrid prosumer video cameras.


The Illusive Mini Pro Form-Factor
Dan. A neglected community of users has been waiting with cash in hand for the GH4 feature set contained in a cage friendly non-DSLR style body for about three years.
Allow me to direct you to the Pentax D645 (attached) . Albeit, a stills camera. This form-factor and not the legacy SLR/Leica orientation is what we need right now for logical 'pointing' for video and stills alike.

Please inform me if possible, when this 'Missing Link' will appear if ever as part of the Panasonic stable of serious independent film maker cameras.
While 4K is a nice obvious next step up resoution-wise, there are other features that seem to out rank it in importance in the near-term for people that have been complaining loudly about DSLR Hybrid shorcommings.

While several of these have been adequately addressed in rumors related to the GH4 ; we'd prefer to see true 10Bit 4:2:2 rather than 4K with a lesser color codec sitting in a GH3 body.
Further. An element that seems to elude many amateur end-users and camera makers alike is the 'sweet spot' sensor size.
We've determined that the ideal sensor size for a hybrid stills/video camera in the context of mixed serious pro use in these applications:
- Narrative Films
- Documentary
- TVC
is NOT Micro43 and NOT Full-frame, but rather IS, DX or APS-C or at least Super35
These latter sensors deliver the best combination of resolution, data density and affordable selective focus from roughly 1.5 crops of FF

I appreciate that the traveling amateur soccer mom, ENG and most events shoters prefers Micro43 for the extended DOF but that very DOF is a shortcomming for narrative and commercial film makers that depend on selective focus as part of the visual aesthetic. Aware that we are of Speedboosters, we'd like to have the right effect natively . Full frame sensor cameras, with their shallower DOF are too difficult to follow focus for ENG, Documentary and other lyrical/narrative filmmaker applications. That's why we are banking on DX or APS-C or Super35 as the Magic Bullet sensor sizes for wrapping the next generation of cameras around.

There will always be a brisk market for cameras with Micro43 in travel and most documentary and ENG, but NOT for narrative, TVC or big budget Documentary applications.
I would welcome your feedback on this and, of course, stand ready to participate in any User Centered Design initiative that you would allow us to join, in service of process and product improvement.

[ signed ]

 

[Samuel H]

If you're talking to them, please ask them to include a near-log profile in their cameras, one that allows video shooters to use all the DR that the sensor can provide. I think that's the single biggest issue with Panasonic cameras right now: even if the sensor can provide half-decent DR, the included picture profiles are really contrasty, and video shooters end up with very limited DR. It should be very easy to fix this.

 

[dcloud]

I disagree on the sensor size argument
samuel h makes more sense.
i want a 120fps or more HFR cam.

 

[Bassman2003]

To my understanding this is accomplished with the use of a $5,500 adapter which translates the light from the 2/3" image over the entire sensor. I would rather see the sensor windowed to a 2/3" size so the adapter would only have to deal with the three chip to one chip translation and therefore be a lot less expensive. The one-chip broadcast camera design is in the HPX-600, so it is already a reality. A camera that you could flip between a large sensor and a 2/3" size would be quite a workhorse for the owner/operator crowd.

 

[FrameFarmMedia]

To my understanding this is accomplished with the use of a $5,500 adapter which translates the light from the 2/3" image over the entire sensor. I would rather see the sensor windowed to a 2/3" size so the adapter would only have to deal with the three chip to one chip translation and therefore be a lot less expensive. The one-chip broadcast camera design is in the HPX-600, so it is already a reality. A camera that you could flip between a large sensor and a 2/3" size would be quite a workhorse for the owner/operator crowd.

The Sony F5/55 have a new firmware update that allows it window a 2/3" and or S16mm portion of the sensor. Zack Zamboni is shooting some of the upcoming season of Parts Unknown using vintage S16 lenses on the F5/55. No optic adapter needed. The new Sony's are a workhorse because of this.

 

[GrahamH]

I disagree on the sensor size argument
samuel h makes more sense.
i want a 120fps or more HFR cam.

I agree with your disagreement. For stills, at least, some predict that APS-size sensors are becoming an uncomfortable middle ground and we'll see gradual migration in coming years towards either smaller senors with compact bodies and lenses (M4/3 and smaller) or else larger 'full frame' cameras - depending on individual's needs.

 

[mcbob]

Interesting opinion Zephyrnoid. I'm one of your aforementioned travel/doc/ENG types (plus commercial/industrial), except decently paid thank-you (or so the IRS believes), and never approach a soccer field, that freaking LOVES m43 for its combination of quality, size (more cameras/lenses per backpack or carry-on), usability and affordability vs. most S35/FF systems. The only thing I've wanted from Panasonic for years is a GH-quality picture with AF form and function and P2 (or micro-P2) + support... OK, a convincing constant parfocal ~12-100 powerzoom as well to go with it. 14 stops of Raw LOG 120+fps 4K is nifty but doesn't necessarily create a better production within the deadlines and specs I typically work, and I won't pay extra to own it if I don't have to... fringe needs mean rental.

Not certain how the "S35 aesthetic" is considered unattainable on m43... just pick a slightly wider lens and open it up an extra stop (easy to do with fast m43 offerings).

I'd hate to see Panasonic abandon m43, but of course seriously doubt they would considering the whole "they make lenses for it" factor.