Panasonic 4K GH4 possibly coming next Spring...
- Thread starter Nicholas Natteau
- Start date
A number, but only a few. I believe that both Phillip Bloom & the guy from cheesycam.com got their hands on an early BMPCC only to find out that none of the SDHC cards they owned would work in the camera. And these are both guys that have a good amount of gear & a good amount of media. So they had to order the top of the line cards before they could really start to mess around with the camera.
All this being said, I doubt even half of it is true. I'm going to join others in saying if Panasonic is making a camera that competes with a C300 / C100, it'll be a AF & not a GH. And if they release a AF200 that has twice the specs & is half the cost of the AF100a, they YAY!, but even that isn't going to happen. I think a 4k 10bit 4:2:2 AF200 is going to be as much, if not more, as a C100 (which would still be a great deal).
Except the rumour is that this camera is moving into the Pro range.
That's right. Andrew Reid's version of the rumor says: "The model has a pro-range product code. It will be dubbed the Panasonic AG-GH4."
Oh, also, supposedly it will have XLR and HD-SDI connections. As someone pointed out elsewhere, if that is really the case, it's a pro camera. No way they would add that to a consumer camera.
Last edited:
Mike Harvey
Veteran
The XLR could appeal to a hobbiest... but SDI? Of course, if the rumored specs are true, I see this trying to straddle both worlds. The XLR/SDI box is an add on. *IF* (and this is 100% speculation) it can take micro-P2, that means it's going to have an SDXC slot to record to. That means it might record to AVCHD. Theoretically, if a 2.5" mic jack and AVCHD is good enough for you, you're set. The GH1/2/3 crowd is happy. Want to fork our the extra coin for pro-outputs and and P2 to take advantage of the flavors of AVC-Intra? Then go ahead, and a completely different set of the market is happy. Everyone wins.
Just please please please have an ND filter wheel, and all the snazzy features of the AF100 (waveform, zebra, etc.).
Sorry, but there's so much about this that just doesn't ring true. The GH1, GH2, GH3 have all basically been stills cameras with a video mode - so why now use the same designation for a primarily video camera? (Even with "AG" in front?) It's the opposite to what marketing people normally try to do. And then "the GH4" - it's extremely uncommon in Japan to use "4" as a product designation as apparently "four" sounds like "death". (See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_superstitions )
The rumours say that it's supposed to go head to head with something like the C300. Technically, and especially for 4K, it's starting at a disadvantage with a sensor about half the area - but then it crams twice as many photosites into that smaller area (about 16Mp cf 8Mp). That would give the processing a much harder time to get a decent 4K - yet this new camera is supposed to do all this at a fraction of the price!?!
Finally, if they really did release this "pro" camera (with a designation previously used for consumer stills cameras) at this sort of low price, and if it indeed did use micro-P2, then what's that likely to do to the marketing of the rest of the Panasonic range? I'm sorry, I just don't see it.
It's conceivable that SOMETHING may be in the pipeline, and SOME of the rumoured specs are true, but I shall be totally amazed if they're ALL as rumoured!
Oh, I actually agree with you in that I also don't believe that Panasonic would mix up their pro and consumer model designations like that. I'm not sure about using the "4" or not, as I don't know if Panasonic has ever used that number on any camera model ever. Others have pointed out that Nikon has, on their flagship camera, no less.
Regardless, Panasonic COULD release this mythical pro camera, base it largely on the GH line with some key modifications and just number it with a pro-line model name, with no mention of GH anything. They have done this before - I'm thinking of the recent example of the AG-AC90 vs HC-X900, but camera manufacturers seem to do this often. It makes sense for them to do so. In short, the rumor could be largely true, but the model number could be completely wrong.
Anyway, your analysis of the engineering and economics involved actually make a lot of sense. Vitaliy says that his sources say it's a BS rumor, and he also claims that there is a concerted effort from moneyed interests to undermine Micro 4/3 system. After reading that, I started to wonder why multiple sources had contacted two websites at the same time to report this.
Regardless, Panasonic COULD release this mythical pro camera, base it largely on the GH line with some key modifications and just number it with a pro-line model name, with no mention of GH anything. They have done this before - I'm thinking of the recent example of the AG-AC90 vs HC-X900, but camera manufacturers seem to do this often. It makes sense for them to do so. In short, the rumor could be largely true, but the model number could be completely wrong.
Anyway, your analysis of the engineering and economics involved actually make a lot of sense. Vitaliy says that his sources say it's a BS rumor, and he also claims that there is a concerted effort from moneyed interests to undermine Micro 4/3 system. After reading that, I started to wonder why multiple sources had contacted two websites at the same time to report this.
I'm a bit confused there - on EOSHD they claim their sources are the same as for 4/3rumours, and the latter only quotes two "sources". So it doesn't seem to be coming from "multiple" sources, just two at most?
And the claims about "concerted effort... to undermine micro 4/3", then how does that fit into this? Surely this rumour is one to bolster the format, not detract?
On 4/3 rumours they say:
It's conceivable Panasonic may launch a high end MFT in the Spring, conceivable they'll want it to compete against the C300, but if those two facts are true, inconceivable (at least to me) that it will then be 1/5 the price!!!
In fact, with the s35 4K Varicam having been Panasonics big announcement at IBC, I really don't think a high end 4/3 video camera is at all likely in that timescale. Surely it could only serve to harm the prospects of the former?
Andrew Gupta
Active member
Respectfully to everyone who posted in this thread (and I mean that) -- this is all nonsense.
Panasonic is going to place 200Mbps/100Mbps pro line codecs (that can't be displayed on a Panasonic consumer HDTV) in a consumer camera? Nonsense.
4k in a consumer camera? Sure, especially if Panasonic is trying to sell 4k televisions. But it sure as heck ain't gonna be a 200Mbps, 10 bit, 4:2:2 codec.
Based on history and probability -- it would be vastly more logical to assume early 4k cameras from Panasonic to appear in camcorder form factor, complete with entry level semi-pro 4:2:0 models and more expensive, higher bitrate "4:2:2" models (recording to MicroP2, etc.). The notion that Panasonic is going to enter the 4k market by issuing pro line features (not yet available on a Varicam) in a consumer ("prosumer") DSLM -- is strange. Very, very strange.
So -- any sensible fellow would be happy to bet the farm against this. And, any blogger who takes this seriously and writes articles about it -- should be approached with caution.
Panasonic is going to place 200Mbps/100Mbps pro line codecs (that can't be displayed on a Panasonic consumer HDTV) in a consumer camera? Nonsense.
4k in a consumer camera? Sure, especially if Panasonic is trying to sell 4k televisions. But it sure as heck ain't gonna be a 200Mbps, 10 bit, 4:2:2 codec.
Based on history and probability -- it would be vastly more logical to assume early 4k cameras from Panasonic to appear in camcorder form factor, complete with entry level semi-pro 4:2:0 models and more expensive, higher bitrate "4:2:2" models (recording to MicroP2, etc.). The notion that Panasonic is going to enter the 4k market by issuing pro line features (not yet available on a Varicam) in a consumer ("prosumer") DSLM -- is strange. Very, very strange.
So -- any sensible fellow would be happy to bet the farm against this. And, any blogger who takes this seriously and writes articles about it -- should be approached with caution.
FrameFarmMedia
Veteran
The rumour isn't for a consumer camera but that Panasonic is making a special AF/AG- GH4K camrea that is part of the pro line but in a DSLR like form factor like the 1DC (but with no stills compromises and video only focus) for example and isn't supposed to compete with the GH3 or further stills hybrids. So given that the rumour is about a pro line camrea the specs aren't far fetched. Panasonic has been sitting out of the pro large sensor game for a while and the GH line is their best selling high end consumr camera so its not a stretch to think that they would use a Pro line GH to bridge the gap and bring GH pro shooter up one price level. The AF100 was a flop from a sales perspective and the GH line has been a massive buzz success in video so why wouldn't they try and jump on something like this
? There is a big hunger for something like this given the response to the rumour.
Af100 wasnt a flop. It actually was succesful at its time.
based onthings panasonic broadcast has done, its highly unlikely these things will happen. I want it to happen but its unlikely
But it seems that in many ways the rumour does point to a consumer camera, or maybe cheapish prosumer may be a better description. Price, GH- designation, form factor etc. But then very impressive headline specs.......
A 16Mpixel sensor is one of the biggest stills compromises it's possible to get!! It's core to the whole subject of sensor specs that you get optimum results with the "right" number of photosites - too few and the resolution suffers, too many and a whole host of other problems. It's no accident that so many current 4K cameras have 8 Mpixel sensors, there are very good engineering design reasons. At half the size of s35, using a chip with twice the number of photosites only makes sense if you accept that it's making use of a primarily "designed for stills" sensor, as the AF100 did.
They've been sitting out of the large sensor game for a while, they then announce accelerated development of a s35 4K Varicam (effectively wrecking sales prospects of the Varicam 3 nearly a year before that comes on sale!!), and then they intend to launch a high spec 4K 4/3 camera for under $3,000 before the s35 Varicam comes on sale!?! Seriously?
The 4K Varicam announcement may be explainable against the backdrop of the Olympics, and Sonys big push to further 4K for broadcast and the FIFA announcements, but even if technically possible, the economics of the "rumourcam" just don't make any sense whatsoever. At the very least, I wouldn't expect it to have the high end codecs - same as the AF100 has AVC-HD, not AVC-Intra.
I mean multiple as in more than one. It just seems kind of coordinated for two sources to contact two of the top 4/3 blogs with rumors of a camera that for many sounds too good to be true.
I'm just reporting what I read, but one possibility that I can think of is that the rumors could whip up a frenzy of expectation that would be impossible to fulfill, leading to a lot of people disappointed with Panasonic, but perhaps also some naysayers putting down the format all together as "not serious". Anyway, here are the quotes from Vitaliy that made me wonder about the whole thing:
"According to few of my sources it is mostly incorrect rumors. Made with sole purpose to confuse m43 users."
"Thing that I know is that few guys and some sellers work against m43 with money interest behind it."
"So, we already saw multiple blogs postings about doubts in m43 future (all in sync, btw)."
Do you see how two sources to two blogs, to two time-coordinated blog posts seemed a bit funny looking back after reading those quotes?
However, on the other hand, 43rumors says "One of my long time trusted sources shared the full specs." So who knows? One side may be mostly accurate (I'm not familiar with Vitaliy's record/history with these types of claims), or the truth could be somewhere in the middle. Unfortunately in this rumors game, anyone can claim anything, and no one can prove that they're right until an official announcement.
Not necessarily. One of the "sources" may have contacted one of the sites with the rumour (be it true or false), the site then tries to get confirmation or denial from another "trusted source", then the second site picks up on the information from the first site. (May never even have spoken to the "sources" - just reprinting what the other site is saying.
I see the argument, but it could work both ways. There's a lot of dissatisfaction that Panasonic have been so long in updating the AF100 already, and whilst I think it's wrong to call it a "flop", it is true that sales haven't been anything like what may have been hoped for it. That may be as much down to unexpected and strong competition as to the AF100 itself. But in the continuing absence of any news from Panasonic, may such a rumour not be seen as "keeping hope alive" in supporters, hence more likely to be started by 4/3 supporters rather than detractors?
I can't pretend to have any inside knowledge, nor money interest, but I've already given my take on the general 4/3 format question here - http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthrea...lenses&p=1986365432&viewfull=1#post1986365432
Basically, I think you have to consider the future of the format for still cameras and dedicated video cameras separately. Personally, my feeling is that for the former 4/3 will be around for a long time, much less likely the latter.
The whole thing about the double sources to double blogs was just a gut reaction, a thought on the back of my mind - no need to analyze it that closely. 
I also see your angle on the rumor as a possibility. I would actually love for MFT to be successful and gain market share because I like the shared technology standard aspect of it, and the weight/size of the gear when compared to full-frame. In fact, I think that the organic sensor technology that Panasonic and Fuji are collaborating on could end up being a huge boost to the format in a few years (maybe sooner?): http://www.dpreview.com/news/2013/0...ndustry-leading-dynamic-range-and-sensitivity
If that tech pans out and barring any heavy industrial espionage, they could possibly lead the sensor field for a while (major gains in sensitivity and dynamic range?). Long live micro four thirds.
I also see your angle on the rumor as a possibility. I would actually love for MFT to be successful and gain market share because I like the shared technology standard aspect of it, and the weight/size of the gear when compared to full-frame. In fact, I think that the organic sensor technology that Panasonic and Fuji are collaborating on could end up being a huge boost to the format in a few years (maybe sooner?): http://www.dpreview.com/news/2013/0...ndustry-leading-dynamic-range-and-sensitivity
If that tech pans out and barring any heavy industrial espionage, they could possibly lead the sensor field for a while (major gains in sensitivity and dynamic range?). Long live micro four thirds.
Last edited:
Don't get too carried away. The efficiency in terms of converting photons into electrons is pretty high in conventional sensors at the moment, so you won't (can't) now get big improvements in those factors down to new sensor tech alone. In fact, read the release and the best they're quoting for improved efficiency is 1.2x. OK, but by doubling the photosite area, that'll bring you 2x. The new tech you talk about may bring improvements, but nowhere near as major as simply going up to s35.
By shared technology, are you thinking of hybrid stills/video? Because if so, you're looking to 16Mp sensors that will be necessary for stills. Compare 16Mp 4/3 to 8 Mp s35, and the individual photosite size of the latter will be about 4x that of the former. Even a 1.2x efficiency improvement is a drop in the ocean compared to that.
Don't get me wrong, I think 4/3 does have a future for stills cameras and where you need the features of a small camera in a video mode. (Effectively, what we know as the GH range.) But for a true pro video camera, s35 will always have an edge - laws of physics.
ShawnMi
Active member
^This is the most sensible thing I've read about the 4k M4/3 rumor since it started!
Shawn
cowpunk52
Veteran
Knowing what's coming down the pipe, I must say that this is a extremely amusing thread. Personally, I'm quite interested in what Panasonic has up their sleeves for the GH line, and I think a lot of people will be quite impressed. I also think it's going to be a harbinger of what's in store for the hybrid video/stills product market in general from all manufacturers in the near future. I will say that the Lumix division of Panasonic is very nimble and hungry to gain market share. They are paying close attention to what consumers & professionals are looking for in a m4/3 product.
Isn't the difference in resolution mostly due to the different aspect ratio of video and stills though? Doing some rough math indicates the 16:9 portion would be pretty close to 4k.
harddrive said:
What do you base that statement on? I've heard that there's little improvement to be made on tiny cell phone sensors, but it seems like there are still big leaps being made on cinema sized sensors. For example Red's Dragon sensor which is massively more sensitive and with more dynamic range despite the photosite size being slightly smaller than their previous MX sensor.